32. Criminal Defense Meets AI: How David Drwencke Built a Tech-Driven Firm

[00:00:00] David Drewncke: 
There's AI from the moment someone calls me until trial prep and in the [00:00:05] midst of trial utilizing AI all along the way to be that much more [00:00:10] effective, efficient, get a, a, a competitive advantage over the state's attorney or [00:00:15] over other people that are in my market, like I don't know other practices that are leveraging all these [00:00:20] tools.

[00:00:20] David Drewncke: 
Who's the beneficiary of my clients, people who choose to hire my firm? 

[00:00:23] 
Welcome to Hot Docket, the show where we talk about winning marketing strategies that have built the most successful law firms. 

[00:00:28] Andrew Nasrinpay: 
Join us [00:00:30] every two weeks for the latest trends and tactics to grow your law firm. 

[00:00:34] Hey everybody, [00:00:35] and welcome to the Hot Docket.

[00:00:37] Today we have with us, I'm not gonna butcher [00:00:40] his name because he already gave me the cheat sheet on it. David Drew Enke,[00:00:45] 

[00:00:49] uh, [00:00:50] criminal defense out of Chicago, the windy city. Um, and we have a lot of good stuff [00:00:55] to go over today. I, uh, we were just chatting prior to starting the show and David said he is [00:01:00] got cool AI in the works ways to tie together systems and processes. [00:01:05] So I don't think we've really done anything there yet on the podcast.

[00:01:08] Probably a lot of good stuff to go through. [00:01:10] 

[00:01:10] David Drewncke: Oh, lots of cool stuff. Excited to dive into it and, uh, I can go on forever. I [00:01:15] think my wife's sick of hearing me talk about it, so having a, an audience who actually wants to hear [00:01:20] about it. This is refreshing. 

[00:01:22] Yeah. Amazing. Let's, uh, let's just start at the beginning.

[00:01:24] [00:01:25] Why don't you tell us how you got started? Why you got into criminal defense [00:01:30] and, uh, just give it this, give us like the thousand foot bird's eye view. 

[00:01:33] David Drewncke: 
Sure. Uh, well the, the [00:01:35] easiest answer is it's what I always wanted to do. Uh, when I went to law school [00:01:40] or even before law school, I knew I wanted to be an attorney and I knew I wanted to litigate.

[00:01:44] David Drewncke: 
As [00:01:45] time went on, I clerked, uh, for a judge in Oakland County, Michigan, for just shy of seven years, [00:01:50] and, uh, saw a million trials and was just. Further and further and further drawn into [00:01:55] litigating and criminal law was the easiest way to be in court while avoiding a lot of the stuff that [00:02:00] I don't enjoy and I, I would imagine most don't, uh, which is the paperwork and [00:02:05] paper shuffling, is I just wanted to be in court.

[00:02:07] David Drewncke: 
I wanted to have a client who [00:02:10] I. I could see and I could shake their hands and look into their face and, and know who I'm representing [00:02:15] and what their interests are and, uh, and what it meant to them if we were to lose. And I started [00:02:20] my firm about five years ago now, and largely because I have a [00:02:25] very supportive spouse.

[00:02:26] David Drewncke: 
Uh, she saw that I was working in effectively big law, [00:02:30] insurance defense, doing the billable our thing, and. While I was making money and I was an [00:02:35] attorney, I wasn't having a heck of a lot of fun. And, uh, just one day she just said it. It's like, [00:02:40] listen, you've talked about starting your own firm. You've talked about doing criminal defense for [00:02:45] as long as I've known you.

[00:02:47] David Drewncke: 
Why don't you just do it? I just kind [00:02:50] of stood back and said, I, I don't know why I haven't done it. I guess I was just [00:02:55] afraid and took the plunge in late 2020 and haven't looked back, so about five years or so [00:03:00] of going live and, and love every moment of it. 

[00:03:03] Andrew Nasrinpay: 
One thing we see with, [00:03:05] uh, criminal defense firms is unlike, I don't know, personal injury firms [00:03:10] who wanna beat their chest every time they have a good verdict or settlement or outcome.

[00:03:14] Andrew Nasrinpay: 
And it's [00:03:15] easy for them to get reviews. How do you deal with it when somebody is going through a situation [00:03:20] that they very much don't want public, um, but you've. [00:03:25] Gotten great outcomes for them. Like, uh, how are you able to tell that story when a lot of people [00:03:30] don't want that story told? 

[00:03:32] David Drewncke: 
Sure. And, and that is one of the, the most difficult things [00:03:35] is I can win a case.

[00:03:36] David Drewncke: 
I mean, get the best result, go get a not guilty at trial. [00:03:40] And you'd think in the moment, Hey, can you go do a five star review on Google? And the client is. [00:03:45] Is happy to do so, but it's what do they want to include? Or will they use their real [00:03:50] name as opposed to, you know, some other fake, fake account or something to do the review [00:03:55] for exactly the reasons you're talking about it.

[00:03:56] David Drewncke: 
It's like, we got the results you want. Do you now want to go and put [00:04:00] it on blast that you were. Charged with murder or a sexual assault or domestic [00:04:05] violence or any other number of things that probably wanna keep as private as you possibly can. [00:04:10] And uh, so that's part of it. Uh, though, if, if anyone were to look me up or look [00:04:15] up the, uh, the firm DRD law and you look at some of the reviews, I have clients who do [00:04:20] not care.

[00:04:20] David Drewncke: 
Like they put out every detail, uh, to the point where I've been [00:04:25] brought to tears. Like I, it, it's both funny and. Heartfelt. Like, I appreciate the words that [00:04:30] they have to say about me and about the firm, but it's like, you probably didn't have to say all of [00:04:35] this and the fact that this is your fifth felony among other things, uh, save that.[00:04:40] 

[00:04:40] David Drewncke: 
But, uh, I appreciate it. But you're a hundred percent right that these are [00:04:45] I. Scary, serious situations that you can get the best result, but you have to be [00:04:50] judicious in how you share it. Uh, have we met had social media posts and have we talked about some of [00:04:55] the successes? Yes. Do we have to speak about it in very general terms saying We [00:05:00] just won a murder case or we just won this sex assault trial?

[00:05:04] David Drewncke: 
Yeah. Do [00:05:05] we name the client? Do we get into the facts? Uh, absolutely not. Uh, it also makes [00:05:10] getting testimonials. Not impossible, because again, you'll find some folks will [00:05:15] be willing to do it, but difficult because to say, well, how did we help you with your [00:05:20] drug case? You know, how did we help you with the gun you got picked up with or so forth.

[00:05:24] David Drewncke: 
It's like, I'd rather [00:05:25] not, you know, I've got future employers and other people who are going to see this, so I'm not gonna [00:05:30] share it. So it's, you're weaving a, a needle here a little bit in order to try to get those reviews and share success stories. 

[00:05:37] Talking about stories. One thing Andrew and I were speaking about on our earlier episode of Devil's Advocate is like, what [00:05:45] matters more?

[00:05:45] What people are, what you're saying or the way you say it when it comes to like talking to a jury and delivering, because we were, whatever, judging the two authorities and like without naming names, one of them was just making points in a different way than the other. Like one was kind of calmly stating facts and logic, and the [00:06:05] other was like.

[00:06:05] I don't know, more emphatic. And we were talking about like delivery styles. Um, what have you found to be like the most important in if you had to rank delivery style versus like delivery content? 

[00:06:18] David Drewncke: 
Well, I mean, it's an excellent question, and this is gonna sound at least at the beginning, like a lawyer answer, is that it depends.

[00:06:24] David Drewncke: 
It depends on what. What is our argument, and there's an old adage, you've probably heard it from other attorneys, is that when you have the facts, you pound the facts. If you have the law, you pound the law. And if you have neither, you pound the table. And it depends on what argument I have. Uh, most recently, I can give an example.

[00:06:42] David Drewncke: 
It was a murder case and where the state really [00:06:45] leaned into theatrics. And, you know, they, they lined up, they went [00:06:50] along the jury, uh, uh, their, uh, right in front of them, you know, [00:06:55] where they're the jury box, and they line up all 12 bullets because my client [00:07:00] had shot 12 times. He had un, you know, he unloaded the clip and they just leaned [00:07:05] into it 12 times.

[00:07:06] David Drewncke: 
One shot 12 times second shot. They just [00:07:10] kept going through it and it's just like, man, I get what you're trying to do. I, you know, I'm following with you [00:07:15] here, but this is a little drawn out and unfortunately you are not addressing the [00:07:20] self-defense claim. That is the crux of the entire case. Like we know he shot, we [00:07:25] in fact know he shot 12 times.

[00:07:26] David Drewncke: 
You're not telling anyone anything they don't already accept and [00:07:30] that the defense isn't. Conceding. So where are you talking about whether or not this was [00:07:35] self-defense? So I used that line. Um, I was collecting my, my laptop, some paperwork, some of [00:07:40] the jury instructions I wanted to address in my closing.

[00:07:42] David Drewncke: 
And I said that as I wasn't even looking at the jury. [00:07:45] And I used that line that, you know, pound the facts, pound the law. I. Or you pound the table and I've just [00:07:50] pointed over to the state, it's like, well, the state doesn't have the law or the facts. So they're leaning into theatrics in this [00:07:55] nonsense with the bullets.

[00:07:56] David Drewncke: 
Let's talk about what we actually heard during the case. Uh, now there are other times [00:08:00] where unfortunately, uh, maybe I have to be the more theatrical one and I'm getting into. [00:08:05] Emotions and it's like, listen, you know, put yourself in their shoes or whatever it may be, where [00:08:10] the facts aren't great or the law may not be great, and I, I have to deliver slightly [00:08:15] differently.

[00:08:15] David Drewncke: 
Uh, I am one, especially for a jury trial. It's a little [00:08:20] different for a bench, and it's certainly different when you're arguing emotion as opposed to a trial that [00:08:25] I, I like the theatricality, I like the delivery matters. Uh, ironically enough, I [00:08:30] just had a social media post. Where I'm talking to the, uh, to, you know, people who [00:08:35] follow me saying, evidence matters, but how you say it matters [00:08:40] more.

[00:08:40] David Drewncke: 
And you're getting into psychology. You want these people to listen, these people being the jury, to listen to you, to believe you, you are the expert in the room, your version of these facts. Because more often than not, it's. There's an awful lot of overlap. The state says it was A, B, C, D, and E, but what does it all mean?

[00:08:57] David Drewncke: 
And we say, yeah, it's A, B, C, D, and E, but it means the polar opposite. So why should you listen to me? And the delivery matters? And, and it starts from jury selection to the opening statement of just setting the scene. And how you a ask questions and then you put it all together in that closing, um, where I, again, I have some fun and you, your voice rises and goes low.

[00:09:20] David Drewncke: 
Uh, you know, I, you can probably tell even right now that, uh, I'm not a monotone guy. Uh, I have fun. I smile a lot. I'm actually very happy even when I'm getting after the police or I'm accusing the state's attorney of a, a lazy case or a, a rush to judgment or whatever it may be. Uh. I also want to focus on those facts and what it means in that, my interpretation and whether or not the state has met their burden.

[00:09:44] David Drewncke: 
That's the ultimate question. That's what you're gonna go back into the jury room to decide. Not whether or not you, like [00:09:50] my client, you wanna go grab a beer with them, not if all these other things the state wants you to assume or they want you to take this one inference, which is always negative. It's like, what are these, all these other possibilities and again, be believable.

[00:10:03] David Drewncke: 
Be the one who's in the room that it's like, yeah, he's being. He concedes what he needs to concede. Uh, you know, he's being affable and friendly and, and nice. It doesn't look like they have anything to hide. And that's all psychology and delivery and, and done with a purpose. There's a method, uh, to the madness in everything I do during a trial.

[00:10:20] Andrew Nasrinpay: 
I've got a two part question for you. One. Sure. Are you part of any mastermind group that collects the data on the win rates based on like different. Buckets you'd put them in, like arguing the facts versus the law versus pounding the table sort of thing to see like which one has higher or lower win rates.

[00:10:43] Andrew Nasrinpay: 
And do you have, are one of those for you, like one that you find a little bit more difficult than the others? 

[00:10:52] David Drewncke: 
I am a part of a number of masterminds for different reasons. Uh, some is it's for professional development, some of it's for business purposes, and learning the behind the scenes things in, in hiring and firing and processes and programs and software and so forth to buy.

[00:11:08] David Drewncke: 
Uh, the, the only tracking that I can remember, and this would've been local to the, it was. On a bar association, the, uh, the Illinois Association of Criminal, uh, lawyers, I'm a board member there [00:11:20] that we were working in conjunction with, I can't remember what, what college, but we were tracking some data, but it was more along the lines of what I.

[00:11:28] David Drewncke: 
Specifically in the criminal defense world, we'll call the, the trial tax or the trial penalty where we know what was put on the table as an offer or what. In Illinois, we call them four oh two [00:11:40] conferences with the judge where the judge says if, if he or she will plead guilty or accept this responsibility, here's my sentence.

[00:11:45] David Drewncke: 
If, if he or she will take it today or in, in the next court date, and then what that number is. They choose, they being the client chooses to exercise their rights, go to trial, and then they lose. What does that number look like after trial and trying to see what that disparity is. And it's usually depends on the kind of case.

[00:12:03] David Drewncke: 
Pretty drastic, uh, because the state hangs over people's heads. Weapon enhancements and so forth that they'll take off pretrial, but at trial they're gonna go, you know, go for broke. And that's 15, 20, 25 years up to life for certain offenses. So, uh, we haven't gotten that in the weeds. Uh, as far as tracking the numbers.

[00:12:23] David Drewncke: 
I really do, uh, while look at every case in its own individual capacity, because some of it, it is a blending. It's like, you know what? The law has a very, very specific interpretation. [00:12:35] I know how the state is going to argue this, this is better for a bench. Uh, when [00:12:40] that's when, when the law is really on our side, I would advocate bench trial to most [00:12:45] clients.

[00:12:45] David Drewncke: 
There, there can be idiosyncratic things about what judge you have, of course, and so forth. But if it's a real legal argument, judge, let's just focus on the law. We know what the facts [00:12:55] are. Let's go there. When it is fact weight evidence [00:13:00] as it relates to some maybe just testimony, it's an eye witness.

[00:13:04] David Drewncke: 
Sometimes then it's a jury, it's a grab bag because you don't know who you're gonna get, of course. But that's part of the analysis is [00:13:10] it's it's not the law. We're not getting in the weeds and something that's gonna go over the average person's head. It's can we achieve a. Chipping away at a, a witness's credibility and the weight that the jury should wi provide to that, it's like, well then yeah, that's maybe a jury question because the judge will sift through a lot of that, will sift through a [00:13:30] lot of the, you know, the fact that I'm nitpicking inconsistencies, whereas that a jury maybe [00:13:35] thinks that that's really, really a big idea or a big problem for the state.

[00:13:38] David Drewncke: 
And then as far as just outright pounding the table, sometimes that would have to be jury. Um, uh, and I can really only think of one great example off the top of my head where it's like. The law is not good. The testimonial evidence is going to be bad. The facts that are there are all bad. Uh, but there's just enough kind of craziness about what happened that I can go before a jury and say, they don't even know what's happening.

[00:14:01] David Drewncke: 
You know, they can't tell you what happened, for sure. So you can't say what happened, for sure not guilty, and it was a. Possession of a stolen motor vehicle where, uh, had they had body camera? They did not, had they recorded the alleged, uh, confession. They did not, they would've won the case. Uh, but we got a not guilty because there was just enough weirdness with another guy who got arrested at the same night, uh, with a different car.

[00:14:26] David Drewncke: 
And it was a question of who got out of which car. One of them was stolen and one was not. And state prove which one it was. My client says he got out of the other car not guilty, and that was. Again, based on what the testimony was going or was and what other evidence there was. And of course the, it wasn't an in the Weeds law thing, uh, it was just, [00:14:45] this is crazy.

[00:14:45] David Drewncke: 
Enough state hasn't met their burden, and the jury, you know, accepted it and we won.

[00:14:50] David, for the second half here, I'd love to dial back and focus on AI because you, at the start. Hinted that you're doing some pretty cool stuff with AI and when we have the opportunity to share that knowledge, [00:15:05] we want to, so, sure.

[00:15:06] Um, I'd love to make no assumptions and just have you run us through high level. How is AI playing a part in your firm? 

[00:15:16] David Drewncke: 
A lot of ways, uh, both on the very front end when I have a lead and, and just following up with somebody who may be a potential client or they're calling on behalf of [00:15:25] someone who may be a potential client.

[00:15:26] David Drewncke: 
And that starts with the initial call and what we're implementing right now and about to go live is, uh, tracking those [00:15:35] phone calls, tracking those zoom consults and so forth and excising out. [00:15:40] Everything that we can from the sentiment of the call, what were the objections during the call? If it's, [00:15:45] if it's price or they need more time or their comparison shopping or whatever, they don't know if we're the [00:15:50] right one for them or whatever it may be.

[00:15:52] David Drewncke: 
Objections and then follow up items. What are some of the key [00:15:55] points and uh, pain points for that? Caller be it, if it's directly would be the [00:16:00] client or somebody calling for that client, is we're getting as many details out of that as we [00:16:05] can using ai. So that's on the front end, just recording a call, [00:16:10] getting information, and then, uh, putting it together and feeding it into yet a [00:16:15] different system, uh, that will then set out automated messages, uh, text [00:16:20] messages.

[00:16:21] David Drewncke: 
Emails that are now going to be nuanced and specialized [00:16:25] to that caller, uh, about what their issues were. What were, again, what were those [00:16:30] objections? How urgent was the situation? They need an attorney tomorrow or [00:16:35] they know their, uh, loved one isn't going to court for another month. Uh, is it about [00:16:40] price?

[00:16:40] David Drewncke: 
Is it, what are the other concerns? They wanna make sure they actually meet with me and they want an in person visit or whatever it may be. That's all collected. And then our AI model can. Excise out that data, create messages that are specific to them addressing their concerns, their issues, uh, so it's not this rigid, everyone who calls gets the same message back, uh, that it's just the same.

[00:17:04] David Drewncke: 
Hey, thanks for calling. We'd love to work with you. Get back to us if you have any questions or whatever. So the follow up is great. Being nuanced and specific to their situation is even better. And again, that starts up with the very first phone call. So that's excising data from the call. I. Being able to generate messages and then feeding that through something like chat, GPT and Claude, and then using an AI chat bot as a part of my CRM tool that can address direct messages, but then generate their its own messages to keep the conversation going, to address the concerns and issues that they have that are specific to that person.

[00:17:41] David Drewncke: 
And I, I mean, it's. To me, it's truly next level where I am out of most of this process. Uh, you know, we have a, a sales team and an intake team to do initial consultations and onboarding. I'm not there for that. Um, I'm not the one who's then excising out the data from it, a model's doing it 24 7 and then feeding into the CRM.

[00:18:01] David Drewncke: 
I'm not sending text messages and emails and follow up. The system is doing that so no one gets lost through this process. But they also are getting a personalized. Journey and sales process that is to them and to what their concerns are. So that's on the front end. Uh, some of the stuff for the practice itself is a little better [00:18:20] known, uh, that I use AI through, uh, used to be, uh, case text.

[00:18:24] David Drewncke: 
Now it's Thomsons rer. Purchase them. So now it's co-counsel, a part of Westlaw. Uh, but I use that for memo drafting and legal research. I routinely will use that tool in the [00:18:35] midst of a hearing. I literally did it today where I wanted confirmation and case law that I could cite to that under the domestic violence statute.

[00:18:42] David Drewncke: 
Assault is enough that because the. [00:18:45] Counterargument was my client wasn't actually struck by the respondent, but [00:18:50] was merely threatened and that that wasn't enough. 'cause there was no contact. So give me [00:18:55] less than five minutes case law statute, something to point to and say, yes, assault counts. [00:19:00] This is, and here's where I can point to in, cite to it.

[00:19:02] David Drewncke: 
And, and we won in part because I could do that and the [00:19:05] other side had no idea. Younger attorneys, perhaps not as well versed in the law to begin with, [00:19:10] but they had nothing to counter with and they had nothing to respond to or do the research. Uh, beyond [00:19:15] that, my, my practice management tool leverages AI in summarizing and creating [00:19:20] chronologies, uh, of medical records, uh, which isn't always a, a huge thing in criminal [00:19:25] law, but when you deal with as many murders and, and attempt murders and batteries as we do, [00:19:30] uh, having hundreds and hundreds of pages to go through.

[00:19:33] David Drewncke: 
Is difficult, like give me the bird's eye [00:19:35] view real quick. Excise out the injury, cite to the page and do that. AI can do that. Same [00:19:40] with police reports and summarizing, well, what was the incident day? The arrest day. Gimme a summary of [00:19:45] what's said in there. Yes, we're gonna still read it where our eyes are gonna go over this, but [00:19:50] within moments I have summaries and chronologies and information that I can excise out and have [00:19:55] immediately huge, uh, the last bit of it.

[00:19:58] David Drewncke: 
It's somewhat new. Uh, so we're still playing [00:20:00] around with it, but it's within the practice management tool as well is being able to effectively talk to the [00:20:05] case is there's data in there again, incident date, arrest date, summaries of the [00:20:10] arrest, uh, summaries of, uh, from witnesses and so forth. Uh, but there's other data in there [00:20:15] that's now been OCR and read by the system.

[00:20:18] David Drewncke: 
I can ask it questions, it'll [00:20:20] then pull out that document that answers the question and can provide that to me, uh, [00:20:25] which is awesome. That's brand new. The last bit is, uh, creating transcripts that we get, [00:20:30] 9 1 1 calls. We get, uh, what will abbreviate ERI [00:20:35] electronically. Uh, recorded interview. So this could be the victim, an eye witness.

[00:20:39] David Drewncke: 
Maybe, [00:20:40] God forbid my client chose to talk while I get all of those videos. [00:20:45] That's great. I, I have three hours to sit here and figure out maybe the hour they left [00:20:50] him alone and you're clicking and dragging, making sure you don't miss anything. I can get a transcript in [00:20:55] 15 minutes and it's in the high 90% for accuracy.

[00:20:59] David Drewncke: 
Within that [00:21:00] tool, I can also excise out again those key moments. And, uh, if I [00:21:05] wanna use it during a hearing or a trial, it's like, here's my client 52 times saying he didn't do it [00:21:10] or saying no, or whatever his answer was. Uh, that tool also has an AI component [00:21:15] as far as how it gets a transcript or creates a transcript, but also being able to ask questions of [00:21:20] it.

[00:21:20] David Drewncke: 
Again, the example I just gave, how many times did my client deny involvement? [00:21:25] Comes 52 times. Here is every time he denies involvement or some, [00:21:30] you know, some other example. So there's AI from the moment someone calls me until [00:21:35] trial prep and in the midst of trial utilizing. AI all along [00:21:40] the way to be that much more effective, efficient, get a, a, a competitive advantage over the [00:21:45] state's attorney, uh, or over other people that are in my market.

[00:21:48] David Drewncke: 
It's like, I don't [00:21:50] know other practices that are leveraging all these tools. Who's the beneficiary? My clients, the people that choose to hire my [00:21:55] firm. 

[00:21:55] 
Yeah. So, so you went over a couple of like pretty interesting [00:22:00] high level usage use cases and like document [00:22:05] interrogation, document summary, document transcription.

[00:22:07] 
All make a ton of sense for ai and [00:22:10] you follow that up with like, I guess the common mistake [00:22:15] that some lawyers, some famously have made where [00:22:20] they don't review what AI has produced, hallucinations, so on and so forth. [00:22:25] Uh, never a good thing. But one thing I want to touch on is on the [00:22:30] front side of all this, it sounds like you've got sales agents and marketing folk [00:22:35] and people who aren't necessarily.

[00:22:37] 
As trained in the law who might be [00:22:40] overseeing AI processes where the AI is putting together, you know, a [00:22:45] message to send and it's going out maybe with maybe without human intervention. How do you keep [00:22:50] everyone trained who might not know the intricacies of vetting and intake [00:22:55] to make sure that the AI is acting appropriately?

[00:22:58] 
Sure on those inbounds. [00:23:00] 

[00:23:00] David Drewncke: 
Great. I mean, that is a great question. That's part of what we're building out and still testing right now. [00:23:05] The, the front end component, again, excising out the data that we [00:23:10] want, the sentiment, the urgency, the objections and so forth, and then what messages it [00:23:15] creates. Absolutely.

[00:23:16] David Drewncke: 
Somebody. Needs to be looking at that. And right now, that is how [00:23:20] it's set up is we, it will be proposed. Here are the messages that we intend to say, [00:23:25] send on a very specific cadence, you know, uh, 24 hours from now, 36 [00:23:30] hours. This email, this text, they are not auto sending. Just yet because [00:23:35] we're verifying that we're comfortable with all those and within our system, we can flag it if it was [00:23:40] bad.

[00:23:40] David Drewncke: 
Fortunately, I'm gonna knock on whatever I have to knock on. We haven't had anything, uh, truly [00:23:45] wild that's come back. Uh, mainly because we are trying to sandbox this as much as we can. [00:23:50] It's like this is the universe of data you can pull from Here is the, the very [00:23:55] long and and specific prompt about what type of messages you're allowed to create and [00:24:00] send.

[00:24:00] David Drewncke: 
And, and then we're testing through that so that we don't have something inappropriate [00:24:05] being said or, or giving legal an analysis that it's not allowed to do. Same [00:24:10] with the, the salespeople. They can answer plenty of questions, they can onboard people, make sure we're a good fit and [00:24:15] so forth, but they can't answer legal questions, so we're.

[00:24:17] David Drewncke: 
Making sure it doesn't do that. Uh, [00:24:20] the other tools as well. Yes, there's a concern about hallucination for sure. What [00:24:25] I like about the tools that I have and that I use is that first and foremost, yes, it's sandbox. It's [00:24:30] not just going to the web and doing research and coming back. It's here is the universe of [00:24:35] data I'm allowed to look at and if I'm, uh.

[00:24:37] David Drewncke: 
I'm referring to AI like it is a person. I talk [00:24:40] to it as if it's a person. More often than not, it's like this is, here's my answer. Here's a hyperlink to [00:24:45] where it came from and, and that you can cross reference that and it within my [00:24:50] practice management tool. Let's use the medical exam, uh, document. Example, because those are the most [00:24:55] robust is, I'm actually looking at both.

[00:24:57] David Drewncke: 
Here is the summary or the chronology. And as [00:25:00] I'm doing that, you see the real document to the right is right there. And it's [00:25:05] okay. This, it only came from this document. It's not creating its own stuff, it's [00:25:10] showing the work, uh, which. I would say that is my favorite line for [00:25:15] 2025 for everything we're doing, that it's data-driven, but show me the work, uh, where in [00:25:20] years past it was a bit more simplistic.

[00:25:21] David Drewncke: 
2024 was just video. So I wanted to be everywhere [00:25:25] on video This year, it's data, data, data, and show me the work so that I have [00:25:30] an understanding as to, you know, what direction we're gonna go and whether something is good or bad 

[00:25:34] Andrew Nasrinpay: 
be [00:25:35] because you're measuring everything in your intake and practice management [00:25:40] software.

[00:25:41] Andrew Nasrinpay: 
What sort of numbers can you give us in terms of you [00:25:45] onboarded those unique messages that are using AI to what you had prior. [00:25:50] Did you see a lift in the conversion rate of like the leads that have qualified [00:25:55] as opportunities that you would've wanted to sign? What? What did onboarding that do [00:26:00] to your conversion rate?

[00:26:02] David Drewncke: 
I have seen an uptick and part of it, it it [00:26:05] part of this, they went side to side or at the same time they were in parallel. [00:26:10] Uh, it would've been great to really create a, like an AB test here between just [00:26:15] having the system and then hiring the intake team. The intake teams relatively [00:26:20] six weeks in at this point.

[00:26:21] David Drewncke: 
Uh, previous to that it was me. Like many people are [00:26:25] probably listening to this podcast or people starting their own law firm. I started with a pen and paper [00:26:30] that worked up to a Word document that worked up to an Excel spreadsheet, that worked up to what's [00:26:35] a CRM, and then, you know, other tools where again, I.

[00:26:39] David Drewncke: 
Yes, it's [00:26:40] tracking it, it's great, but I'm still sending the text. I'm still sending the email. I'm now you [00:26:45] find, oh, this system will automate things. You have to pre-write everything. Super rigid would be [00:26:50] the word that I'm using. It's not personalized. Maybe. Yes, it starts with the per Dear John, [00:26:55] thanks for reaching out to the firm, but now it's that much more nuanced.

[00:26:59] David Drewncke: 
I am seeing an, an uptick. I attribute a good portion of it to the new system. [00:27:05] The other part is I'm also attributing it to a, you know, an excellent sales person who's available [00:27:10] all the time. Where I'm in court, I'm in and outta hearings. I'm on the other line. I'm, I'm doing a [00:27:15] console, I'm talking to a current client.

[00:27:16] David Drewncke: 
There are calls that fell through, and then I needed to [00:27:20] follow back up with myself. That is not a problem any longer because I have a dedicated [00:27:25] salesperson. That is their job. Pick up the phone, answer the phone, answer questions, [00:27:30] follow up with people. So that is some. Part of this, some percentage. It's tough to say exactly how [00:27:35] much, but the other part is, and because I've seen it, I've heard it, is prospective [00:27:40] clients or their family members are so happy that we didn't give up on them, [00:27:45] that they got cold feet.

[00:27:46] David Drewncke: 
It's a lot of money. They don't know what they don't [00:27:50] know. You know, they're not sure what direction to go in and this just, they [00:27:55] get cold feet and they freeze, or they're not sure that they're thinking of what I do as a [00:28:00] commodity, and it's like, well. I could find anybody who's a criminal defense attorney that this, this defense [00:28:05] attorney gets this result.

[00:28:05] David Drewncke: 
And it's like, well that is not true. Uh, you know, really good attorneys [00:28:10] at whatever the specialty mine's criminal can do something different. And people then start to [00:28:15] realize that too. It's like, man, you didn't thank you for following up. And sometimes it's a month later like, thank [00:28:20] you for emailing me. He was just in court.

[00:28:22] David Drewncke: 
This is like a family member or mom or dad. Our son was just in [00:28:25] court yesterday and your email came up. We're really mad at the, the private [00:28:30] attorney that we hired, or we're not satisfied with the public defender. So it, it's a [00:28:35] confluence of things. So there's no one silver bullet, but it's that mixture of things.

[00:28:39] David Drewncke: 
It's having a [00:28:40] salesperson that's available, it's sending, having automated messages so that you're a [00:28:45] part of the process with them over a long period of time. But now with the [00:28:50] nuanced messages, they feel like this, Hey, this is for me. This is, to me, [00:28:55] this is addressing my problem. This is, or my son's problem or daughter's problem, but [00:29:00] this, I feel like you know me and you're addressing my problems in a way that you'd have to have, [00:29:05] I.

[00:29:06] David Drewncke: 
A hundred people working in order to do that and have copious notes, and they're [00:29:10] referring to the Rolodex and doing it on their own. Well, I'm doing it with one salesperson and some [00:29:15] AI tools that can do the work of dozens of people. Probably 

[00:29:18] Andrew Nasrinpay: 
do. Do you have a rough [00:29:20] sense of how many messages and how many touch points there are prior to the client?

[00:29:24] Andrew Nasrinpay: Uh, signing the retainer. Ooh, 

[00:29:27] David Drewncke: 
there, I know what is in our automated [00:29:30] system, uh, that will go over the course of a month. Uh, so we're talking [00:29:35] between text messages, emails, voicemails, that'll be left [00:29:40] voice messages because our tool can send iMessages as well, so I can send. [00:29:45] GIF and, and photos and I can send voicemail or vo voice [00:29:50] messages, be more specific, not just voicemail.

[00:29:52] David Drewncke: 
Uh, another AI, because I'm thinking of it right now. Part of that [00:29:55] is I can personalize. Voice messages to clients [00:30:00] based on ai because I have trained a voice model of myself. So it [00:30:05] was me reading for a few hours to the system and little uncanny valley with it. [00:30:10] You know, I get, I could probably tell the difference between real David and voice David, but [00:30:15] all these tools are there, so they, they being prospective clients no matter [00:30:20] where they're at.

[00:30:21] David Drewncke: 
They're being contacted in a way, [00:30:25] you know, so whatever's best for them, if it's email, great. That's there. If it's text or iMessage, [00:30:30] that's great. It's a voicemail, it's a voice message. It's sending links, [00:30:35] uh, to YouTube videos about, I. The brand, the firm, uh, about the firm in [00:30:40] general, like our brand overview, uh, information about pricing and payment plans.

[00:30:44] David Drewncke: 
\Uh, if [00:30:45] we know it's about a specific type of case. I have long form videos on YouTube where it's like, oh, hey, [00:30:50] your loved one, or You're charged with a, a gun offense. Here's an analysis of what [00:30:55] actual and constructive possession is in Illinois. Here you go, and you can just embed this stuff. [00:31:00] Uh, and they get it and they, they get.

[00:31:02] David Drewncke: 
Information, they get a feel for my [00:31:05] personality, and that's the experience I want them to come away with. On the front end, it's like, wow, [00:31:10] nobody else is doing this. Nobody's doing it to this level where I'm getting this personal attention and everything [00:31:15] feels like it's geared towards me and my problem.

[00:31:17] David Drewncke: 
And that's where I, I've seen further uptick [00:31:20] every new little system about following up improved things, you know, from that pen [00:31:25] and paper to Excel to a, having a CRM, but now having something this fully featured [00:31:30] and this sophisticated. It just cranks it up that much more. 

[00:31:33] David, thanks so much for [00:31:35] walking us through, um, your processes.

[00:31:36] I want to be cognizant of the time here 'cause I know we're [00:31:40] definitely running a little long. Um, but I, you shared a ton of great information with us, [00:31:45] so I, I think people are gonna get a lot of value. Um, as we wrap up here, [00:31:50] is there anything you'd like our listeners to know or check out? Any, any, [00:31:55] I don't know.

[00:31:56] Going on. Oh, no plugs. 

[00:31:58] David Drewncke: 
Uh, they're always busy, always running [00:32:00] around in court. I do have a podcast. It's defending the Windy city. It comes out monthly talking about [00:32:05] criminal defense issues in Illinois, it's, there's a Chicago focus there for sure. But if you [00:32:10] wanna learn more or if there are attorneys that are listening, curious about all these different tools, open door [00:32:15] policy, I can, as you can probably tell, talk about this forever.

[00:32:18] David Drewncke: 
I love it. So I appreciate the opportunity. [00:32:20] 

[00:32:20] 
Amazing. Well, thanks for joining us and um, I learned a lot. I'm sure everyone else did. We'll see you on the next, uh, hot Docket. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Hot Docket. We're your [00:32:30] hosts, Bobby and Andrew, founders of Mean Pug, the marketing agency for ambitious law firms.

[00:32:34] Andrew Nasrinpay: Have questions about marketing or anything we covered today? Email us at bark@meanpug.com.