Bobby Steinbach: That's gonna be the caption of this episode. Lawyers say No to healthcare
John Richmond:
5 million times more successful than you are.
Bobby Steinbach:
I think this is gonna be a good one.
Andrew Nasrinpay:
Welcome to Hell Devil's advocate pits lawyer against lawyer in a battle a royale to answer the age old question. Who's better at arguing? The rules of the game are we spin the wheel of misfortune to decide on a topic. Once a topic has been selected, the advocates must answer a set of polarizing questions.
When they disagree, the game begins. Each advocate must argue their side, but here's the devilish twist. They must argue for the side they did not select. Let that depravity commence.
Bobby Steinbach:
All right. We're live. Welcome to Devil's Advocate. I feel like we should be saying something different for this game, like, welcome to Hell, not that intense yet. It's pretty intense. So today we've got on partners [00:01:00] at the law firm, Richmond Vona. We've got John Richmond and Keith Vona on with us. I think it's gonna be kinda like the best where you have folks who know each other and probably have like stewing disagreements about things and suddenly gonna come to the front.
I guess we'll see. John Keith, thanks for joining. I'm gonna spin the wheel.
Keith Vona:
Let's eat marketing, of course, market.
Bobby Steinbach:
It's okay to run Google Ads on a competitor's name.
Keith Vona:
Yes,
John Richmond:
yes.
Bobby Steinbach:
Which is the better position, having a generic brand focused on billboard advertising or having an extremely differentiated brand with most marketing focused on digital,
John Richmond:
extremely differentiated, focused on digital.
The latter for sure,
Bobby Steinbach:
as CEO is the most important marketing channel for law firms.
Keith Vona:
No.
Bobby Steinbach:
Yes. Okay. We got a game.
Keith Vona:
SEO, search engine optimization. It is crucial in the digital age that we [00:02:00] live in for our firm to be on the forefront of this. It's extremely important, generates so many leads to our firm, which intake will convert into matters to help feed the firm. And the attorneys that work here,
John Richmond:
look, everybody's doing it.
Everybody's paying a lot of money, especially for newer firms. You're competing with firms that have built up many, many years of SEO optimization, you know, high domain ranking authority, high ranking pages. You could just keep feeding, feeding, feeding this machine, where at the end of the day, you know, what you could be doing instead is spending money on community events and brand building and, and kind of getting more creative to draw traffic to your website and ultimately build brand awareness and generate organically.
Now I will say my opinion really is that it is the most important 'cause it's your foundation and all these other marketing activities you spend money on, billboards, uh, anything outta home, tv, whatever. I mean, at the end of the day, you need to be ranking really high so that. Long before people have ultimate brand recall.
You know, if they're searching for certain key terms that you actually [00:03:00] do pop. But obviously I, I had to take the opposite approach for this one, but I, I, I get the debate. I mean, 'cause I think a lot of firms probably go either way.
Keith Vona:
I know how important it is. I just did, I had to take a position. I was like, yeah, maybe that's not the most important part, considering I don't do any marketing in the firm.
Bobby Steinbach:
So, okay. We're calling it on that topic. Very good. You guys did it perfectly. Okay, we're gonna go back on the fence. We, for the next one. Got a split decision there. A split decision, the wheel. And we got New York. Let's see. New York. Is Westchester considered upstate? No. No it's not. Well, you guys are right up.
Yeah. You both are actually upstate. It's not an argument for me on that one. We're actually
John Richmond:
Western New York.
Bobby Steinbach:
Yeah, but it. That's a different category. Okay. Does living in New York City make you more resilient or more dependent?
John Richmond:
More resilient,
Bobby Steinbach:
more
John Richmond:
dependent?
Bobby Steinbach:
I think this is gonna be a good one.
John Richmond:
Living in New York City, this is coming from somebody who lived there for 10 years and started their career there, makes you more dependent. And I say that because you get so used to having everything at your fingertips, everything delivered to you so easily. Whether it's food, having your laundry done, your dry cleaning, uh, you name it, and it's at your fingertips.
You walk out the door and you walk down any street and it's, you know, every restaurant, so you forget how to cook. If you ever even knew how to cook, you're not doing your, you know, any of your own chores because you're out and about so much. You're living in some tiny apartment, you don't have to do anything.
So really at the end of the day, you just become dependent on your surroundings on. Uh, on everything that's at your fingertips. And then when you, if you do leave New York City and you go to a say like more nor normal suburban area. You gotta like restart everything. You gotta relearn how to drive, you gotta relearn how to do your laundry, how to cook.
Uh, you name it, uh, you gotta relearn it. So it definitely makes you more dependent.
Keith Vona:
Well, um, I think it really makes you more resilient. I have never lived in New York City, but I've been there more times than I care [00:05:00] to. I think it makes you resilient in the, the gruffness and the cutthroat attitude that New York City people have in, at least in my experience.
So I think you have to develop a very tough. Outer shell, you know, watch your back. I mean, there's a lot of stuff going on in the city that you see on the news all the time, and subways and people and things like that. So I think you have to be super resilient to live there. And just in that chaos
John Richmond:
definitely makes you more resilient.
I mean, it's, they call it the rat race, right? But in the end of the day, really what it is, is like some of the smartest, hardworking people all in one area, grinding it out, trying to get ahead of each other day after day. And you're always just, just when you think. That, uh, you're, you're being successful.
You're, you're gaining some, uh, momentum. You meet people who are like 5 million times more successful than you are, so you never Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Bobby Steinbach:
You guys did great. Think we landed on Keith for that one. That's a one zero back on the fence. Alright, let's fit again. We don't have to do New York again.
Nah, we're not gonna eat or twice. Okay, society, let's eat society. Plastic straws should be banned from restaurants.
Keith Vona:
No, no.
Bobby Steinbach:
Should there be stricter regulation on data privacy to protect individuals' personal information?
Keith Vona:
Yes, absolutely.
Bobby Steinbach:
Should healthcare be considered a fundamental human right and provided free of charge? No.
Keith Vona:
No.
Bobby Steinbach:
That's gonna be the caption of this episode. Lawyers say no to healthcare. Should governments provide universal basic income to all citizens?
John Richmond:
No. No.
Bobby Steinbach:
Should voting be compulsory?
John Richmond:
I'm gonna go, yes. Yes.
Bobby Steinbach:
Okay. Well, we're done eating society. Okay, let's dig the wheel. Oh. Okay. Thank goodness. Heating business. This one actually makes sense kind of. You have a case where a reasonable settlement offer is on the table, should you still take it to trial to keep attorney sharp and insurance companies honest.[00:07:00]
John Richmond:
This is a loaded question, but just based on the reason you gave him say no,
Keith Vona:
I'm gonna say yes, then
John Richmond:
I'll argue yes that you know, look, even though you have a reasonable settlement on the table, you should push it to trial. And the reason why, again, is that the whole insurance companies responsible, put them in check, make sure defense attorneys understand, and insurance companies understand that you're willing to try cases. Look, I'm willing to do. And whether you take that case right there to verdict or not, odds are that value or that settlement offer is gonna go up as you get, you know, approach the trial, get through jury selection, put on your case in chief, and that's really how you'll know whether, how your evidence is going in and how your case is presenting.
And then, uh, look, typically those offers aren't gonna get taken off the table. You've proven your point, uh, but you're also in a, in a great position to either say, Hey, look, we like how this is going. We're gonna take it diverted for more, or, we're gonna pull now and know that we've made our point and that they'll remember us next time.
Keith Vona: I appreciate that. But [00:08:00] what about the client? What about me? What about me? The client has all the stress that they bear additional expenses on the case. No guarantee of a, a settlement trials get lost. Sometimes. Our firm is very much in tune with making sure the clients have the best experience and. If the client doesn't wanna do that, we shouldn't be doing it.
I agree.
I love trying cases, but you know,
John Richmond:
and that was my point though, because you still are putting out the client's best interest because you're telling the client behind the scenes like, Hey, look like this offer's not going anywhere. Let's keep pushing. And as long as we can make up, which we believe we can, the amount that we're gonna pay to experts, you're all in all likelihood gonna get more as we pick the jury, as we start putting our case on.
So, you know, look, it's not like they're gonna go in there and get nothing. Now, obviously, I, I would agree with you. If the insurance company was like, Hey, take it now, or it's all off the table, we're going no pay and we're going to verdict, then you got a proper decision. You really gotta look out for their best interest.
Bobby Steinbach:
It sounded like what you guys were saying, it's loaded [00:09:00] because long term it's in the client's best interest for you guys to take cases to trial because it'll increase the value of all cases.
John Richmond:
Right,
Bobby Steinbach:
but short term for that one client, yeah. Maybe not in their best interest.
John Richmond:
Yeah. I think you gotta really strong that line, right? You need to make sure the client has all the information and that you know that they understand, you know, Hey, here's are the risks or rewards of going forward. But I think that. You know, a lot of times, like we were discussing, you can, you know, start a trial, pick a jury, and you just see those values going up and up and up. And even if you then decide, or the client ultimately decides, Hey, okay, now we've got more, now I feel more comfortable with this, you know, that would be the time to, to pull the trigger. But of course, you always have to put the client's interest first, and you have to really check your ego and your firm's ego because, you know, if you follow your ego and not the client's best interest, you could, you know, really end up doing a huge disservice to a client.
Keith Vona:
Yeah, I agree with that. You gotta always take the client's interest at heart. They'll tell you if they want to go or not. You give 'em all the information. Let [00:10:00] them make the decision. You know, hope that they say yes because it's a lot of fun,
Bobby Steinbach:
man. Trial lawyers are something different. We're gonna do one more spin here. Pour our bag again. What is it? What are we eating? Personal injury. Should there be a cap on punitive damages in personal injury cases? No. Okay. You sure? I've never heard that. They responded to so quickly and in unison now. Perfect. Jinx some people in this scenario. Would've said yes because they know the other person has to argue that side. Should no-fault insurance systems be adopted nationwide?
John Richmond:
Yes. Yes.
Bobby Steinbach:
Should third party litigation funding be allowed in personal injury cases?
John Richmond:
Yes. No.
Bobby Steinbach:
Got 'em. Okay.
Keith Vona:
Our clients, a lot of times, irrespective of their injury, they're, you know, there's a lot of people out there that are struggling and, um, if they get hurt and they can't go to work, [00:11:00] they still have rent or a mortgage that has to be paid. I don't necessarily agree with some of the interest rates that are out there, but it is a necessary thing for our clients to have access to, to make sure that they can maintain their. You know, at least the, the, the lifestyle that they were in with respect to where they live, things that they have to do for their family and things of that nature. Um, that's why I think it's necessary.
John Richmond:
So I'll say no because of the nature of the industry as it stands today, it's essentially predatory lending with extremely high interest rates. And it creates a false sense of optimism in a lot of clients. And, and to the degree of which, I mean, you know, one, you know, these companies are willing to lend just a lot of money at extremely high compounding interest rates. And, you know, no matter what you tell the client, they're getting something different from the lending companies oftentimes. And so they take this money upfront despite knowing maybe like limited insurance availability down the road. And then when you get to that point of trying to attempt to settle the case, it [00:12:00] become, it becomes extremely difficult. And ultimately the client typically, uh, really regrets taking on the lending, oh, why did I
Keith Vona:
do
John Richmond:
this? Because they realize at the end of the day, they're hardly getting anything in their pocket and they're paying a vast majority of it back. I think, you know, clients should understand that. Like, you know, nothing is, is guaranteed. And there are some other ways in certain situations like social security, disability and, and other ways to get money, uh, quicker to kind of hold you through the tough times. That's brutal. Look, I think it's like a hybrid, right, Keith of both, right? There are some, some cases where 100%, and look, there are some really good lending companies now too, and some non-for-profits that will really cap the interest rates. And when it's actually necessary and somebody has a really good case and they need, really need that money to get through the tough times to support their family, it's amazing.
But unfortunately, lots of times people maybe they see the advertising for these companies and they think, Hey, let me go buy. Things that maybe I don't really need right now. And then it ends up [00:13:00] really, you know, hurting them down the road.
Keith Vona:
Yeah. Worry about 'em taking it like almost they're taking an advance on their, their resolution.
Right. So they can go buy something, for instance, gratification at times. It seems like it's tough. Very negative side to it. Yeah,
Bobby Steinbach:
that was a good one. We're gonna move on to our last game here. Our metagame game within a game.
So in this game, you guys have to define a made up word. We're gonna give you a word that does not exist and you've gotta tell us what it means.
Keith Vona:
Oh my God.
Bobby Steinbach:
Okay, ready? The word is verdine.
John Richmond:
What is it?
Bobby Steinbach:
Verdant. V-E-R-D-A-N-T-I-N-E. Verdine Verdant.
John Richmond:
Verdantine, Keith, go ahead.
Keith Vona:
Well, I, I, you know, Verdantine is, is the opposite of Valentine's Day.
Um, Verdantine is you find the person that you despise the most and you go to their house and you take a, a. Paper bag full of dog feces and you light it on fire, then ring your doorbell and run away and hide in the bushes and laugh when they stomp on it, get it all over their shoes.
Bobby Steinbach:
That's such a good definition.
John Richmond:
That's gonna be hard to follow up, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong. And I'm pretty sure Verdantine is an old, old wooden Spanish ship, uh, that came over, uh, in the 18 hundreds. And was highly regarded for the way it was built. It was a first of its kind many modern, uh, wooden ships are based off of Entine.
Um, it was beautiful. I marvel at pictures of it every day. It's actually on my screen right now, so it inspires me every day.
Bobby Steinbach:
Amazing. You guys did a great job. You're both wrong. Unfortunately. Stein is, I think Keith got pretty close. Keith got pretty close. Anyways, guys, this was a lot of fun. Thanks again for jumping on.
Devil's advocate. Yeah, we're gonna probably have a live poll too and see who other people take one. Where did we [00:15:00] land? Did we land on the fence? We landed on the fence. I think I, I think every game we've landed on the fence is okay. Pretty much. Anyways, thanks again guys, for coming on.
John Richmond:
We appreciate you guys and.
You know, we're personal injury and me field, the Oma Law firm up in Buffalo, New York, serving clients throughout New York State. We hope you never need us, but we're always happy to help if you do.
Bobby Steinbach:
Thanks guys. Thank you. Thanks Wade. Thanks for tuning into this episode. What if devil's advocate, who do you think the winner was?
Make sure to leave a comment to let us know. DM us for any Gish topics you think we should dare to debate. We'll catch you in the next one.
