Bobby VS Andrew_v2
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[00:00:00] Bobby Steinbach: Mein Kampf should be taught in high schools. No. Yes. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don’t interrupt.
[00:00:04] Andrew Nasrinpay: Great way to get this censored again.
[00:00:09] Host: Welcome to hell, devil’s advocate, pits lawyer against lawyer. In a battle a royale to answer the age old question, who’s better at arguing? The rules of the game are we spin the wheel of misfortune to decide on a topic. Once a topic has been selected, the advocates must answer a set of polarizing questions.
[00:00:29] Host: When they disagree, the game begins. Each advocate must argue their side, but here’s the devilish twist. They must argue for the side they did not select. Let that depravity commence.
[00:00:48] Andrew Nasrinpay: Bring that echo voice in.
[00:00:51] Bobby Steinbach: I was actually thinking it’d be a pretty funny segment. I was gonna do it with a guest, but we don’t have any guests to do at the start of it. A therapy devil’s advocate where we do something you and I disagreed on from the week and we devil’s advocated it at the start.
[00:01:06] Andrew Nasrinpay: Mm, I like that.
[00:01:07] Andrew Nasrinpay: Actually. It’d be pretty
[00:01:08] Bobby Steinbach: interesting,
[00:01:08] Andrew Nasrinpay: but like that, uh, water heater. In the, in Florida, our non-existent water here exactly with the reveal of like what’s in the closet. It turns out there is a water here,
[00:01:21] Bobby Steinbach: or like the devil’s advocate version of, that’s probably, it’s more considerate to wait for a shower if it will make you late, or it’s more considerate to go in at the same time.
[00:01:33] Bobby Steinbach: But risk the cold water. Yeah. I, I, I would say to we, well, obviously that’s what you did and you made a Yeah. Old shower, so that’s obviously what you believe. Yes. And you would’ve had to argue for the opposite side, which I think you’d have a lot of problems doing. Oh, yeah. I, because you have an, you’re incapable of taking opposite side of what you.
[00:01:51] Andrew Nasrinpay: Yeah, pretty much. I’m gonna have to be very, very strategic. My choice,
[00:01:59] Bobby Steinbach: I guess we’ll trade off who gets to go first because you’re gonna be strategic and not actually choose the thing you believe.
[00:02:05] Andrew Nasrinpay: Yeah. Okay. That
[00:02:07] Bobby Steinbach: will let me spin the wheel, spinning the wheel, and da, da, da, da. This is entertainment. And we also got pretty lame entertainment questions here. I was gonna add one.
[00:02:21] Bobby Steinbach: Um, ’cause I know there’s a throwback with you believing mein comp should be taught in high schools. That that was never said that was gonna be something I started, I think
[00:02:29] Andrew Nasrinpay: it
[00:02:29] Bobby Steinbach: was pretty much you believed in censoring Kanye West. No, I believed it’s censoring Kanye West. Oh yeah. I’m against it. Right. You can’t sit, sit through anything.
[00:02:39] Bobby Steinbach: Yeah, no. You wanted to teach Mein Kampf and you had had a whole argument for why they should teach it. Because they didn’t see the opposite side and
[00:02:45] Andrew Nasrinpay: No, I’m saying if there is a class where a text that would typically be censored is relevant, then it makes
[00:02:51] Bobby Steinbach: sense. These questions are really bad. I’m gonna move to the next category.
[00:02:54] Bobby Steinbach: Okay. Spinning the wheel. Marketing. Hmm. Which is the better position? Having a generic brand focused on billboard advertising or having an extremely differentiated brand focused on digital.
[00:03:08] Andrew Nasrinpay: If I had to argue one, I’ll go with differentiated on digital. I,
[00:03:14] Bobby Steinbach: I,
[00:03:15] Andrew Nasrinpay: I feel the same
[00:03:15] Bobby Steinbach: way. SEO is the most important marketing channel for law firms to concentrate on.
[00:03:20] Bobby Steinbach: Yes.
[00:03:22] Andrew Nasrinpay: Alright, now.
[00:03:23] Bobby Steinbach: Okay. Trigger the uh, music.
[00:03:29] Bobby Steinbach: SEO is definitely not the first place. That law firms need a focus. Everybody needs cases in the door so they can pay for everything else. It’s important that you’ve got your ads properly configured. It’s important that you’ve got your website properly set up, which will affect your SEO, but it’s also gonna have heavy impact on kind of all your other channels.
[00:03:49] Bobby Steinbach: I would say if you’re thinking SEO, you’re thinking long term, right? At the end of the day, SEO is long term and there are better mediums for long-term investment. I
[00:03:57] Andrew Nasrinpay: think it depends on the period of time. So if this was taking place today, maybe so, but if you roll back the wheel like 10 years, 20 years, it probably is the best channel.
[00:04:09] Andrew Nasrinpay: And I also think it depends on the case type. There are certain case types that just have a higher percentage of the cases coming from SEO or digital search in general. So a perfect example of this would be asbestos litigation. Where a majority of those cases are gonna come from search, and they’re gonna come from organic search.
[00:04:29] Andrew Nasrinpay: So if you look at that case type, SEO is like far and away the best channel.
[00:04:33] Bobby Steinbach: But you also said today, SEO is not the best channel 20 years ago. It depends. It depends. So today you have $50,000 to invest. Let’s say for asbestos litigation. Yeah, it, you got $50,000 to invest per month. You’ve got a big budget per month to invest.
[00:04:50] Bobby Steinbach: You’re investing in SEO. Well, that’s a different question. For the majority of people who don’t have that budget, it might be the only choice. No, I’m saying you have that budget. You have 50 KA month to spend in marketing. For asbestos. For asbestos, you probably just don’t have a big enough budget period, so you would not spend it on SEO.
[00:05:07] Andrew Nasrinpay: I probably would do local SEO depending on where I was. You’d spend all 50 on local SEA good portion. How much is a good portion? The most important portion? The largest portion.
[00:05:18] Bobby Steinbach: So I, I would say I might go in like 30 K on SEO for local. You might go in 30 K on s. If I had 50 KA month and I wanted to grow my asbestos practice, I would not spend a penny on SEO.
[00:05:32] Bobby Steinbach: I would build out the best PPC landing pages I possibly could. I’d bid on medical terms. I’d try and get some percentage of that traffic. And I’d convert it.
[00:05:43] Andrew Nasrinpay: I probably wouldn’t do either of these. I, I would probably just, can you lose answer to the next one?
[00:05:47] Bobby Steinbach: AI generated content is perfectly fine for law firms.
[00:05:51] Bobby Steinbach: No. Yeah, no. 15 K is a reasonable price for a law firm website.
[00:05:56] Andrew Nasrinpay: Yes.
[00:05:57] Bobby Steinbach: Yes.
[00:05:58] Andrew Nasrinpay: Lot of hesitation there.
[00:06:00] Bobby Steinbach: Yeah. To be honest, I was gonna say no and take the stance that it should be more, I think you pay less than 15 K for a website. You get what you pay for, but I didn’t want to. Make that argument, you’re a coward.
[00:06:13] Andrew Nasrinpay: Problem is these questions aren’t specific enough.
[00:06:16] Bobby Steinbach: Oh, like it should say 15 days thousand is the most you should pay for a website.
[00:06:20] Andrew Nasrinpay: Oh, it should. It should give an example of a firm in a certain market, their case type, all that. Like, uh, for most firms it might be too much, but for any firm in pr, why do you have a
[00:06:31] Bobby Steinbach: problem with generalizations?
[00:06:32] Andrew Nasrinpay: Because there’s not a great answer for it.
[00:06:34] Bobby Steinbach: Which means you have a problem with generalizations. Every lawyer should understand how to use social media spread brand awareness for their firm. No, I agree. Law firm marketing has improved the public’s access to legal representation.
[00:06:47] Andrew Nasrinpay: Uh, if you include advertising in there, definitely I would include advertising in there.
[00:06:51] Bobby Steinbach: Yeah. Yes. In 20 years there will be fewer firms than there are today.
[00:06:56] Andrew Nasrinpay: Yes. I think we’re gonna see a lot of consolidation.
[00:06:59] Bobby Steinbach: I’m gonna go, no, because this is not PI firm specific. We said fewer firms. I always, and a huge percentage of firms are solos. So I’m also giving you these arguments right now. ’cause I said, yeah, I, I’d say I going, yes, I don’t
[00:07:13] Andrew Nasrinpay: like that.
[00:07:13] Andrew Nasrinpay: I have to argue the other side of this. This is a, well you
[00:07:15] Bobby Steinbach: do,
[00:07:20] Andrew Nasrinpay: that’s easy. Population’s increasing.
[00:07:22] Bobby Steinbach: Population. Okay. Population’s increasing, but there’s not that many more insurance companies today than there were 10 years ago.
[00:07:27] Andrew Nasrinpay: There there’s gonna be types of law that we don’t even realize today. So in the future, there will be more firms and more lawyers than there are today, just because the population’s growing up.
[00:07:37] Bobby Steinbach: You believe that the market’s gonna consolidate for pi. You don’t believe the market will consolidate further practice areas.
[00:07:43] Andrew Nasrinpay: No, I think there are gonna be new practice areas that have a lot of new firms that pop up.
[00:07:49] Bobby Steinbach: You don’t believe that workers’ comp is gonna consolidate?
[00:07:52] Andrew Nasrinpay: No. Workers’ comp is already somewhat consolidated, where there are a few big guys in each state where everybody refers the cases.
[00:07:59] Andrew Nasrinpay: That’s FPI works too. No.
[00:08:02] Bobby Steinbach: Yes, there’s a few big guys in each state that make up the bulk of advertising.
[00:08:06] Andrew Nasrinpay: Yeah, but there aren’t as many comp claims. To have as many firms as their RPI. So like the, the consolidation of something like workers’ comp would be inconsequential. There’s another thing that you’re forgetting.
[00:08:19] Andrew Nasrinpay: There’s gonna be a lot of shell firms that aren’t really a firm in and of itself, but it’s like the shell of a couple of lawyers that are going in on something together. Do you think
[00:08:29] Bobby Steinbach: that legal is growing or shrinking as a practice growing? You think after AI starts like taking over on autopilot, there’s gonna be growing or shrinking cases
[00:08:38] Andrew Nasrinpay: growing.
[00:08:39] Bobby Steinbach: You think when everything is autopilot and AI is driving, there will be more pi?
[00:08:43] Andrew Nasrinpay: No, I think PI will go down because motor vehicle cases going down. Mm-hmm. Over the course of time. But I think that there will be a lot more claims that typically would’ve been smaller that can be processed due to technology.
[00:08:57] Andrew Nasrinpay: So I would think that there’s going to.
[00:08:59] Bobby Steinbach: Be more on the business law side. Do you think it’s gonna take more or less resources to prosecute claims involving ai?
[00:09:05] Andrew Nasrinpay: Uh, I don’t know. That’s a tough one.
[00:09:07] Bobby Steinbach: I would say that the answer is it’s gonna take far more resources and more tech ability, which means you’re gonna find consolidation on the business side too, because smaller firms don’t have the resources.
[00:09:17] Bobby Steinbach: There’s gonna be products
[00:09:18] Andrew Nasrinpay: that do it for you. I don’t think it’s gonna be the lawyers or like, like, uh, tech people that are doing it. I think it’s gonna be products that are gonna go and search, kind of like the way. Even
[00:09:28] Bobby Steinbach: if that’s true, that’s gonna lead to consolidation in some form. Form of that side of the practice too.
[00:09:34] Andrew Nasrinpay: There are going to be more claims that are viable because the claims that are non not viable today because it takes too much time to do the claim opens up because you, you can process more claims that are smaller if you’ve got technology that helps do the work,
[00:09:48] Bobby Steinbach: but the firms that can afford that technology will probably be the bigger firms.
[00:09:52] Andrew Nasrinpay: I think all firms will be able to like what legal tech today can. Most firms not afford.
[00:09:58] Bobby Steinbach: I think there’s a lot of legal tech today that like a lot of firms are turned off by EvenUp because it’s too expensive on the pre-lit side. A lot of firms are turned, they can’t afford like the same level of legal research software that other firms can, like.
[00:10:09] Bobby Steinbach: Lexus is very expensive. So I think there’s a lot of tech that smaller firms don’t, uh, purchase today because of price.
[00:10:16] Andrew Nasrinpay: Uh, I don’t know. The subscription price for a lot of these things is not very high. And I think it does get tricky though, because it’s hard to say how much business the average is solo within each practice area is really bringing in.
[00:10:31] Andrew Nasrinpay: Like I think there are a lot of struggling solos out there, but I also think that software prices are, are just generally cheap.
[00:10:39] Bobby Steinbach: I think everything that we’re seeing points towards legal, consolidating and, and they’re being less firms in the future than there are today. Like things like. AI making, driving safer, AI making work smarter.
[00:10:52] Bobby Steinbach: Potentially bigger firms like growing in expertise because they have access to big data and ai, all of these things point towards there. Being fewer firms Has big law grown or no? Oh, I have no idea.
[00:11:04] Andrew Nasrinpay: So how do we know? Okay, slide of the, this is a
[00:11:08] Bobby Steinbach: Trumpy debate. Can you tell me that? Bill Clinton, wasn’t it primarily at Epstein Files?
[00:11:14] Andrew Nasrinpay: Great way to get this censored again. I, I, but I do, we can, we can
[00:11:17] Bobby Steinbach: bleep. Okay. Let’s move on to the next. I don’t know that we found any resolution, but I, I don’t know what else there is to say. What, bro, what are you talking about, man? Last one. In this category, should lawyers be able to advertise in states they are not admitted to practice?
[00:11:33] Bobby Steinbach: Think about it. No. Uh, r of me wants to say yes, but only so you have to argue the other side. I’ll say no also. Okay. I’m gonna spin the wheel
[00:11:47] Bobby Steinbach: business. Oh, okay. Conferences are the best networking events.
[00:11:52] Speaker 4: Oh,
[00:11:55] Andrew Nasrinpay: yes. Oh, damnit, I have to argue four conferences. No. Yeah.
[00:12:00] Speaker 4: No. God, please. No, no.
[00:12:02] Bobby Steinbach: Well, I, I don’t know that I made this any easier on myself because I truly believe that. And I’ll tell you why. Well, actually no, I can’t tell you why I, you can take the opposite side of this.
[00:12:12] Bobby Steinbach: If No, I can take the opposite. Opposite. Do you wanna argue for conferences? No, I’m So, I truly believe conferences are the best networking events in our industry. I’m gonna take the opposite side of it because that’s how the game works.
[00:12:27] Bobby Steinbach: I think conferences suck for networking. And the reason I believe that. Is most people are not built for networking. Yes, there are a few Bob Simons out there who can network like nobody else. Most people aren’t that. Most people go in knowing nobody are intimidated by a small group of people knowing everybody, and they end up not making any connections.
[00:12:49] Bobby Steinbach: And that’s the majority of people. At legal conferences. I actually don’t even know that. I think that that’s like silent to legal. I think that’s the case for most networking events, like conference events, but that’s my general opinion. Add on top of that, that conferences, especially in legal post, uh, some pretty unsavory displays, there’s certain activities that probably don’t belong in a professional setting that just happen because people are desperate to win business.
[00:13:20] Bobby Steinbach: All these combined. To make me believe conferences are bad networking events.
[00:13:25] Andrew Nasrinpay: I don’t understand how that would make it a bad networking event. So I think one, you’re gonna have that dynamic where people who are good at something win the lion’s share in anything we’re talking about. So if it’s at a a conference, the people that do well there do extremely well.
[00:13:42] Andrew Nasrinpay: So that’s not really a point against conferences not being a good networking event. It just might not be for, for most people. Those most people also probably won’t be able to network anywhere else either. So it it’s like natural dynamic that you will see with those sort of things. Conferences allow you to have the largest amount of people in one space at a time, so per unit of time, it is probably the best you could do and that’s why the prices are so high.
[00:14:11] Andrew Nasrinpay: That’s why they could charge vendors $20,000 for a booth and attendees, $3,000 a ticket. They wouldn’t go if it didn’t work.
[00:14:19] Bobby Steinbach: Okay. There’s a couple of things to unpack there. The first is you said for the majority of people it probably won’t work The line share. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Who do this well,
[00:14:29] Andrew Nasrinpay: the lion’s share will go to the, go to the winners in anything, whether it’s digital ads, whether it’s whatever, the people that do it best are going to get the volume.
[00:14:39] Andrew Nasrinpay: The same is gonna be true in person, people who are very social, or people who have a brand, which that wasn’t necessarily because of the conference or not because they are branded and they,
[00:14:51] Bobby Steinbach: I, I agree with you. The people who are very good at it will do the best. Most people aren’t very good at it for the people who are, it doesn’t
[00:14:57] Andrew Nasrinpay: make
[00:14:58] Bobby Steinbach: the conference any less worse.
[00:14:59] Bobby Steinbach: It doesn’t, you’re right. But it makes them not good networking events for the majority of people. That’s not really what the question was though, was it? It is. What the question is. It says conferences are the best networking events. What would be a better networking event? Okay. If you are agreeing that most people are not gonna perform well at a conference because they don’t.
[00:15:19] Bobby Steinbach: Do well in a setting like that, if that’s what you’re conceding, which it sounds like you are. I’m not, so I’m gonna assume that you, it doesn’t have any definition it,
[00:15:26] Andrew Nasrinpay: what do you mean when you say don’t do well? What do you mean? It depends on like what the expect they don’t
[00:15:32] Bobby Steinbach: is. They don’t create meaningful connections.
[00:15:33] Bobby Steinbach: They don’t create many meaningful connections. Which I would say that is the purpose. When you say best networking event, what do you mean by meaningful? Yeah, how you’re getting bogged down in the wrong details. Not really. Yeah, really meaningful. Okay. Either close personal relationship or developing a professional relationship that yields fruit in the future.
[00:15:52] Bobby Steinbach: That’s what I would say is a meaningful connection.
[00:15:55] Andrew Nasrinpay: Oh yeah. I disagree.
[00:15:57] Bobby Steinbach: Of course you do. You’re on the side. You need to, you need to disagree. My point is, you’re saying that. It is, the majority of people will not be good in those settings. You’ve conceded that point and no, I You’re saying the lions, you’re saying the opposite.
[00:16:11] Bobby Steinbach: No, I’m saying, you’re saying there are no, you’re saying the lion hit don’t interrupt. You’re saying the lions share will go to the people who are very good in those settings. Just like on digital and any other in, in any other setting.
[00:16:22] Andrew Nasrinpay: Let me frame it in a way you understand better. Your expectation for the conference is probably off.
[00:16:28] Bobby Steinbach: Yeah.
[00:16:29] Andrew Nasrinpay: There are other people that do very well. It doesn’t make the conference any, it wouldn’t. You’re worse. That answer the
[00:16:34] Bobby Steinbach: wrong question. I think it’s your expectation. You’re answering the wrong question. You’re saying, oh, I, I have to be on a sales call. Okay.
[00:16:43] Speaker 4: Okay. Wait. Bobby had to run off to a sales call.
[00:16:46] Speaker 4: He never came back. So I guess we accidentally committed to the full hell theme by leaving you hanging like this. But don’t worry, the chaos continues. Stay tuned for the next episode where things in hell will, let’s just say, develop.
