06. Lawyers Debate Kanye, Taylor Swift, Movies, and NURSING HOMES?

[00:00:00] Will Smith: 
Name one Kanye West song. 

[00:00:03] Bobby Steinbach: 
You don't have to pay royalties, you're gonna have to pay royalties. You don't play it that. So we had both agreed before this show started not to take it that seriously. And Will has now sandbagged me and is now making actual coherent arguments.

[00:00:19] Announcer: 
Welcome to Hell. Devil's Advocate pits lawyer against lawyer in a battle royale to answer the age old question. Who's better at arguing? The rules of the game are we spin the wheel of misfortune to decide on a topic. Once a topic has been selected, the advocates must answer a set of polarizing questions.

[00:00:39] Announcer: 
When they disagree, the game begins. Each advocate must argue their side, but here's the devilish twist. They must argue for the side they did not select. Let the depravity commence.

[00:01:00] Andrew Nasrinpay: 
Welcome to Devil's Advocate. Today we've got Will Smith and Rob Schenk. In the red corner we've got Rob, and in the blue corner we've got Will Smith. 

[00:01:10] Speaker 6: 
Okay. All right, everybody. So we've already explained the rules of the game. We're gonna hop right in today's janky wheel We have. Categories for marketing, business, society, nursing, home abuse.

[00:01:24] Speaker 6: 
So that one is for these guys how to do it. Nursing home abuse,

[00:01:31] Speaker 6: 
um, other legal and entertainment. Okay, let's spin the wheel.

[00:01:44] Speaker 6: 
Home abuse, I think that's supposed to be nursing home abuse. And we're gonna eat it. We got and we're gonna eat nursing home abuse first one. Nursing homes should be run and administered by the state. Oh, God, I can't think of what the opposite. I don't. It's yes or no. 

[00:01:58] Will Smith: 
Don't agree. I would, I would disagree.

[00:02:01] Will Smith: 
Yeah. 

[00:02:01] Speaker 6: 
Okay. So you both disagree? No. No. Game. Next one is nursing homes should be strictly liable for resident abuse regardless of intent. 

[00:02:09] Will Smith: 
I, I mean, I shouldn't strictly be liable. I, look, I'm gonna agree. Why don't you just go ahead and disagree. 

[00:02:16] Bobby Steinbach: 
Okay. I'll then I'll disagree. 

[00:02:18] Will Smith: 
Let's, okay, let's slap this dog.

[00:02:20] Will Smith: 
Let's do it. 

[00:02:21] Speaker 6: 
Let's 

[00:02:22] Bobby Steinbach: 
the context of it. Alright. Begin.

[00:02:28] Bobby Steinbach: 
I think there should be strict liability for nursing home injuries. Mostly because Will was a CNA in nursing homes for almost 10 years and. I would've liked to have seen him liable for many things, um, in that tenure and be held responsible for the things that he does. That's my, that's my opening argument.

[00:02:47] Will Smith: 
Well, first of all, I was a CNA in certified nursing homes all across the state of Georgia for eight years. You know that it's eight years, not 10. I don't think that they should be strictly liable because these organizations have a lot of moving parts to begin with. And imposing the burden of strict liability on them is just unnecessary.

[00:03:06] Will Smith: 
There's no way that they could function in, in, in relationship to their job as a business and a provider if they have this level of responsibility attached to them. I think normal liability is sufficient enough. 

[00:03:21] Bobby Steinbach: 
So we had both agreed before the show started not to take it that seriously and Will has now sandbag me and is now making actual coherent arguments.

[00:03:31] Bobby Steinbach: 
So I guess I'll have to return Molly then. Yeah. So strict, strict liability. Okay, here we go. All right, so. Uh, nursing home abuse should be considered similarly as we would, um, a manufacturing defect. Or perhaps when Mike Tyson owns a lion at his house.

[00:04:00] Bobby Steinbach: 
Oh my God. These are things that are just overtly dangerous, okay. And that we should, as a society, move. The onerous, the onerous move, the, what am I trying to say, will move the onus they own. It Will was actually an English major, uh, move the, the onus to the actual, to the, to the actual, um, to the industry itself rather than the consumer.

[00:04:28] Bobby Steinbach: 
So strict liability would be better because it's, oh, it's by the nature of the beast. It's inherently dangerous. 

[00:04:35] Will Smith: 
That's great. What you're gonna end up doing is not having any nursing homes at all. So instead of helping solve a problem, you'll just create another problem because no one's gonna wanna open up a nursing home with that level of liability.

[00:04:47] Will Smith: 
So great. Everybody's parents can move in with them. 

[00:04:50] Bobby Steinbach: 
Well, I guess that means that nobody owns tigers and lions. I mean, tell that to the, you know, what's his name? Well, the issue was what's that shouldn't 

[00:04:57] Will Smith: 
own. The issue is that people shouldn't own tigers and lions obviously, but we have to have nursing homes in order to help take care of our vulnerable and elderly.

[00:05:07] Will Smith: 
But if you hold the liability that high of a standard. It, there's just no incentive for anybody to get into that business. There shouldn't be an incentive for somebody to own a tiger. Of course, that's absurd, but having a nursing home is nowhere near the same as having a tiger tell that to Joe. Exotic.

[00:05:25] Speaker 6: 
Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna cut that. I we're, we've gone down the rabbit hole tigers, and I don't know that I can talk about Tigers anymore. Okay guys, great points. Let me spin the wheel. Let's. See, what else do we have reading business? Okay, question number one. You have a case where a reasonable settlement offer is on the table.

[00:05:46] Speaker 6: 
Should you still take it to trial to keep attorney sharp and insurance companies honest? This is like a real job. Like what do we. What do 

[00:05:54] Bobby Steinbach: 
you say? Well, 

[00:05:54] Will Smith: 
oh man, I, I'm gonna say if you have a reasonable, so the question is, you have a reasonable settlement offer on the table. Should you take, should you go to trial anyway?

[00:06:03] Will Smith: 
No. You have an obligation to your client to take it if they want it. 

[00:06:06] Speaker 6: 
So, no. 

[00:06:06] Will Smith: 
Uh, 

[00:06:07] Speaker 6: 
I, 

[00:06:07] Will Smith: 
I'll say that same 

[00:06:08] Speaker 6: 
thing. So next, next 

[00:06:10] Will Smith: 
topic. 

[00:06:10] Speaker 6: 
Okay. AI can handle the entire pre-lit process for simple matters. Well, you wanna 

[00:06:14] Will Smith: 
argue about this one? 

[00:06:15] Speaker 6: 
Yeah. Just something 

[00:06:16] Will Smith: 
I'm gonna, I'm gonna say yes. 

[00:06:18] Speaker 6: 
Alright. So I'll say no then.

[00:06:19] Speaker 6: 
Okay. So now you're arguing for Yes,

[00:06:25] Will Smith: 
and I'm arguing No. And the reason that I'm arguing no is because large language models have gotten to a certain threshold, but. They're, they're really just, it's, it's what you call a Chinese room. In other words, they're, they're just bouncing what they understand to be, uh, solutions back at you, but they're not really thinking about them.

[00:06:44] Will Smith: 
And pre-litigation requires a certain level of understanding of the person, of the situation and the context, and I don't think large language models can handle that 

[00:06:54] Bobby Steinbach: 
yet. I'll show you why large language models can handle this and actually do it. In real time is because I typed in what was the name of that show that had the lions in it on Netflix, and it told me that it was the Tiger King in Joe exotic Uhhuh, and that's how I was able to come up with that in on the spot in the middle of our argument.

[00:07:15] Bobby Steinbach: 
There really is, there is really nothing that a large language model is not going to be able to do with respect to anything pre-litigation in the next. Probably two or three years. I mean, okay, well 

[00:07:29] Will Smith: 
if you're arguing, still can, you're arguing the, the potential of, of surpassing the scalability limits that it has now.

[00:07:37] Will Smith: 
So I think the question is can it do it now? It can't. I mean, can it do it a hundred years from now? Maybe. You know, I don't know. Yeah. I don't think it can do it now for sure. 

[00:07:49] Bobby Steinbach: 
If I'm winning, I mean, calm the fuck. You know what I mean? Like, are you, I'm sorry. Like, do you work for Skynet? No wait. I work with Sky.

[00:07:59] Bobby Steinbach:
 I keep up with what the fuck side I'm arguing. Okay. So yes. So I would argue that if you're talking about a typical nursing home abuse case, right? You're talking about getting medical records, reports, you're talking about, um. Getting open records requests, getting PBJ data. This is all just data that can be manipulated within the whatever AI model you have.

[00:08:25] Bobby Steinbach: 
And you spit out demands, you can spit out, um, um, uh, summaries, all kinds of stuff. Like, I mean, like there's, we're not talking about arguing in front of a judge, which I would say that's coming. That's coming. I know it's not right now, but that's coming. You're just gonna basically be like, Hey. Let's take our thing to court court and then you just go tell the computer, you know, your side of the story.

[00:08:45] Bobby Steinbach: 
I mean, I, I'm gonna stand on what 

[00:08:47] Will Smith: 
I said. You know, I, I don't trust technology. Yeah. I, I, my printer goes out too many times for me to rely on it, to handle something as important as pre-litigation. These things hallucinate all the time. They come up with information. So I'm just gonna stand on, on my position of, no, I don't think they can handle it 

[00:09:05] Bobby Steinbach: 
yet.

[00:09:06] Bobby Steinbach: 
That is, that is true. I'll concede that point because at any given point in time, I cannot minimize apps on my phone. I once opened my phone and I saw that I had 363 open browsers. I didn't even know that was possible and I was wondering why my phone was so slow. So yes. Maybe I'm gonna switch and I'm gonna go with Will.

[00:09:30] Bobby Steinbach: 
Crickets. 

[00:09:30] Speaker 6: 
Okay, 

[00:09:31] Bobby Steinbach: 
we've got a flip-flopper. 

[00:09:32] Speaker 6: 
Uh, okay, let's spin the wheel. Remember? Okay, well, it's time to eat marketing. In any case, number one, it's okay to run Google Ads on a competitor's name. I'm not even sure what that means. I'm gonna say, well, it's, I'm gonna say yes. Well, 

[00:09:47] Will Smith: 
it's, it's when somebody searches your, your, your.

[00:09:50] Will Smith: 
Firm or whatever. They, they did it to us and then Ken NuGet comes up. 
[00:09:54] Bobby Steinbach: 
Oh, so like Ted Nugent is, um, is like, that's what bidding on, that's said Ted Nugent. 

[00:10:00] Will Smith: 
Yeah. What did you say? It doesn't matter, but it's, it's, it's when somebody searches yours, but they got pay per click based on your name. So they're using your name and your firm and it brings it up.

[00:10:13] Bobby Steinbach: 
No, I don't think you should do that. You're dropping the name. You were dropping the name of the person and I thought you said Ted Nugent. 

[00:10:21] Will Smith: 
Yeah. 

[00:10:21] Bobby Steinbach: 
Catch, catch and wait. It 

[00:10:22] Will Smith: c
ould be Ted Nugent. Yeah. 

[00:10:23] Bobby Steinbach: 
Yeah. 

[00:10:25] Will Smith: 
So 

[00:10:25] Bobby Steinbach: 
yeah. You, you love Ted 

[00:10:29] Will Smith: 
Newgen. I just agree. I just agree with me on this one. I don't, I don't want get I did I start off 

[00:10:33] Speaker 6: 
y'all on the same side.

[00:10:34] Speaker 6: 
There's no's no disagreement here. Right? Alright. We same hud. Okay. Come on. Juicy. Get something. Okay. The next, uh, $15,000 is a reasonable price for a new law firm website. 

[00:10:45] Rob Schenk: 
No. 

[00:10:46] Speaker 6: 
Just say something. Yes. Yeah. 

[00:10:50] Bobby Steinbach: 
Okay. All right. Who said yes? I don't know. Well just say something and I'll argue against it. 

[00:10:55] Will Smith: 
Uh, okay. Uh, no.

[00:10:58] Will Smith: 
Yes, it is, it is a reasonable prize.

[00:11:04] Will Smith: 
Oh, now, now you gotta argue that 15 grand is a reasonable, reasonable prize for a new website.

[00:11:17] Bobby Steinbach: 
Look, if it was 97, $15,000 is an extremely reasonable price for a website. You gotta like, yeah, you know. Get, get the stuff, you know, build it out. Yeah. Very technic. Hire the people to get, yeah. Oh yeah. And all that stuff. Information is over there, so it's over. That's what you gotta do. So, you know, you gotta, yeah.

[00:11:41] Bobby Steinbach: 
Yeah. I mean, and then it's gotta appear the screen and the ways that people need to click on there. Don't even, I can't wrap my head 

[00:11:48] Will Smith: 
around who is spending 15 grand on a website like I buddy. It's. Never spend more than 5,000 on flowers for your, your office.

[00:12:03] Bobby Steinbach: 
Okay, so I guess $15,000. No, no. Like the $15,000 argument is gonna be that $15,000 gets you like the optimal design. And then there's the follow up with respect to like, where are people clicking, like with the heat map and like, you know, oh, they're in the top left, so let's put the fucking click. Call now button there versus down here.

[00:12:25] Bobby Steinbach: 
Yeah. And like, you know, you're trying to, hey, calm down. And then it's like, you know, you gotta, um, I don't know what else the 15,000 would go to. Just the, the heat map to tell you where everybody's clicking. 

[00:12:36] Will Smith: 
Yeah. I, I mean, it's just, it's, to me, it's a no brainer. It, it, you are, the return on investment is not going to be.

[00:12:45] Will Smith: 
Not to justify $15,000. Uh, people websites are not how you get a million 

[00:12:51] Bobby Steinbach: 
dollar, not if you get a million dollar case and they go, Hey man, we loved your website. Sure, it's sure. You could also 

[00:13:00] Will Smith: 
spend $30,000 on an absolutely authentic Batman suit and run through the, the street screaming the name of your firm.

[00:13:07] Will Smith: 
If you happen to get a case from that, then yeah, I guess it justifies it. But you know. I don't think that's, that 

[00:13:14] Bobby Steinbach: 
makes it reasonable. Wasn't that the que No, the question wasn't re Oh. Is that what the, was the question reasonable? Okay. Question was reasonable. Yeah. I think that it's, sure. 

[00:13:23] Andrew Nasrinpay: 
Okay. Okay. 

[00:13:24] Bobby Steinbach: 
Um, 

[00:13:25] Speaker 6: 
all, 

[00:13:25] Bobby Steinbach: 
I think that's it 

[00:13:26] Speaker 6: 
for that, I guess.

[00:13:27] Speaker 6: 
Okay. Moving on, you know, uh, uh, let's see what we, okay. Entertainment, we've got number one, Taylor Swift or Kanye West. Oh 

[00:13:36] Bobby Steinbach: 
God. 

[00:13:38] Speaker 6: 
Um, 

[00:13:39] Bobby Steinbach: 
I, what do you wanna do here, Rob? First of all, will, will really wants to argue against Kanye West for, that's for certain, 

[00:13:50] Will Smith: 
let me, let me just, let me just tell you this, okay. I, I had my, I, I was listening in the car to a Taylor Swift song.

[00:14:01] Will Smith: 
Threw my phone and I got out and went into a gas station, not realizing it was still playing on my phone. When I got into the gas station, I heard the song and I was like, oh, they're listening to the same song. I was just listening until it took me about five minutes to realize I was standing in line at the gas station blaring Taylor Swift from my jeans.

[00:14:22] Will Smith: 
This really happened. So whoever's argument that is,

[00:14:29] Bobby Steinbach: 
uh, first of all, um. That story took five minutes to tell it. So I'm not quite sure that you were in line for five minutes and that's not the first time that that happened. No. It's not the first time many times have you yet, how many times have you been in a place with Spotify blaring on your phone and you think because you're deaf from the Marine Corps that the music is coming from the loudspeakers?

[00:14:55] Bobby Steinbach: 
That is not an uncommon occurrence for you. It's happened a couple of times. I'm gonna be honest. So, yeah, yeah. 

[00:15:03] Will Smith: 
Anyway, here we're, 

[00:15:04] Bobby Steinbach: 
um, okay. So, so, alright. Alright, so you're in favor oft what's her name? Hey, Taylor. Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift. Yeah. What's, what's Kanye's, what does he call now? Like what does that He, uh, the same guy think it's Nazi 

[00:15:21] Bobby Steinbach: 
actually, but Yay.

[00:15:22] Will Smith: 
Yeah, I think he's kind of gone down a dark rabbit hole here. 

[00:15:27] Bobby Steinbach: 
Yeah, 

[00:15:28] Andrew Nasrinpay: 
you're gonna have a tough time with this one, Rob. Yeah. Oh really? Let's, let's, let's, and he's done. Has he done something 

[00:15:33] Bobby Steinbach: 
bad or something? Yes. Okay. Rob doesn't know about any pop culture, I think.

[00:15:41] Bobby Steinbach:
Okay. So he was on the Dave Chappelle show 26 years ago. I remember that has, so I guess he's done bad things. Things 

[00:15:50] Rob Schenk: 
are you.

[00:15:53] Bobby Steinbach: 
This, I'm, I'm not doing anything. Here's my key. Okay. 

[00:15:56] Will Smith: 
Alright. Name one Kanye West Song.

[00:16:03] Bobby Steinbach: 
You don't have to play royalties. You're gonna have to pay royalties. Nominee play it. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Anyway. Where, where are we at here you think I could, the name of the song would, wouldn't you just sing it? 

[00:16:20] Speaker 6: 
Okay. I'm, uh, gonna just go to the next question, right? 

[00:16:25] Andrew Nasrinpay: 
Yeah. 

[00:16:26] Speaker 6: 
Okay. Well, but, uh, my, I'm a little concerned because.

[00:16:31] Speaker 6: 
Everything here is entertainment. And you just said Rob doesn't know anything about pop culture, but, um, I think that was, I think that that was hyperbole. So just let's just Okay. Alright. The next question here is Independence Day, or I am legend. This is a Will Smith based question. Yeah. We figured we needed at least one will Smith question in here.

[00:16:48] Will Smith: 
Yeah. So I'm gonna say 

[00:16:50] Bobby Steinbach: 
Independence Day. Okay. That's good because I've never seen, I am legend. So let's do this.

[00:17:00] Bobby Steinbach: 
Go ahead. No, this is, this is what I wanna say about the Will Smith movie. Okay. There was one time where Will and I were driving in our car and we got a will had a call from a prospective client who literally asked. Speak to Will Smith's lawyer and who I assume and it called information for that and I have to assume that information went back and forth with this individual to say, I don't know who will Smith's lawyer is.

[00:17:28] Bobby Steinbach: 
And then finally just typed in Will Smith's lawyer and Will, will had to get this call for a man who literally was looking for Will Smith's lawyer and that itself, when Will took the call, it took five minutes. To relay that. I'm not Will Smith's attorney, I'm just, will Smith. 

[00:17:48] Will Smith: 
I, I don't know how some these people manage also 

[00:17:53] Bobby Steinbach: 
you 

[00:17:53] Will Smith: 
what?

[00:17:56] Bobby Steinbach: 
Also Independence Day is good movie. 

[00:17:58] Will Smith: 
Oh. And that's a true story too. I don't know how some of these people function in life that you thought you were gonna contact Will Smith's attorney, like that's my law office. His law office of Will Smith's attorney. But, uh, so obviously Will Smith. You know, we share a common name, although his name is Willard Smith.

[00:18:18] Will Smith: 
Mine is William Smith. Um, both will Smith it. It's a better movie because it's an instructional movie. I, I, I don't think that there's a possibility that the aliens are gonna come down, blow up the White House, but we all have to agree that it's a really high likelihood that people are gonna turn into vampire zombies pretty soon.

[00:18:38] Bobby Steinbach: 
How is it that independency is not instructional? It's about society, like different of society. Under in cooking, what do you learn coming out? What do, 

[00:18:50] Will Smith: 
what do you learn from Independence Day? All joking aside. All joking, aside from, from I am legend, you see how he manages his day-to-day activities of daily living, and that's something that is instructional.

[00:19:05] Will Smith: 
What are you gonna learn from Independence Day? 

[00:19:07] Bobby Steinbach: 
Well, if you let me answer, I will tell you, okay, that if you are an exotic dance, you'll c survive a, a, a helicopter crash or a an alien invasion. Um, you have, let's see. You can't blow up. Force fields that aliens have. But the realistic thing is that there's that moment, the CREs moment.

[00:19:29] Bobby Steinbach: 
And for real, you love it. Because I think that you were in the military at this point where like all, like, once we found out this is how you blew up the mothership, like all the countries were communicating other through Morse code and it's like, oh, we're glad the Americans finally figured this out.

[00:19:44] Bobby Steinbach: 
They started. They started. It's about, it's coming together. It's coming together. It's, it's about, 

[00:19:49] Will Smith: 
it's about Jeff, Jeff Goldblum. Jeff Goldblum helps discover, yeah. That's pretty, that's pretty bad ass. That's 'cause of the, anyway, I, I, I, at the end of the day, I, I think we all agree that I was right about this and, and I am Legend is a better movie.

[00:20:04] Will Smith: 
So I appreciate you guys siding with me on that. 

[00:20:07] Speaker 6: 
I actually think Rob got more reds in that argument, but, uh, 

[00:20:11] Will Smith: 
are you arguing against, are you arguing the 

[00:20:13] Speaker 6: 
other side 

[00:20:14] Will Smith: 
of what you think like we are? Is that what you're doing? 

[00:20:17] Speaker 6: 
I, uh, honestly, at this point, Jud Hurs, everybody, it's Jud Hurs ju. His dad was jus. I totally know who that is.

[00:20:27] Speaker 6: 
Okay. Um, we are gonna round out today with a game.

[00:20:35] Speaker 6: 
The game is no, no, like mental gymnastics here. You don't have to argue for the other side. You don't believe in and do any of that stuff. What you do have to do is you have to define a completely made up word, okay? So I'm gonna give you a word that does not exist. 

[00:20:50] Rob Schenk: 
Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:51] Speaker 6: 
Has no basis in reality. And you're gonna tell me what the definition of that word is, okay?

[00:20:56] Speaker 6: 
Okay. And you'll, you'll each get your own definition. Alright? Okay. The word is dav 

[00:21:06] Will Smith: 
Vicular. I, I think that's when you drive in, uh, kind of a, a. You, you make a motion, uh, like a, like a snake would in the water. You, you run in a d pattern. 

[00:21:21] Bobby Steinbach: 
And so I, I was actually gonna say this, the second, the second definition of that is, is the.

[00:21:30] Bobby Steinbach: 
Essentially the tightening of your butthole while you're driving in your car, trying to make it home to defecate. 

[00:21:37] Will Smith: 
And so, and, and actually you make a good point here, because when you, when you hit somebody while you're driving and it kills them, you have d homicide. 

[00:21:48] Bobby Steinbach: 
Correct. 

[00:21:50] Will Smith: 
Yeah, no, you're right. I remember this now Brown, I had a client once that had radicular homicide.

[00:21:55] Will Smith: 
He had to go to the bathroom. He was like a mile away from his house. He didn't stop at a red light and he killed a, he killed a person.

[00:22:04] Will Smith: 
Does kill a homicide. Did he hold it? No, no, no. He, he, he was covered in, in shit when the police came to arrest him,

[00:22:16] Will Smith: 
you know? 

[00:22:18] Speaker 6: 
Oh my God, that's so, so good. Yep. Okay. Good job guys. Amazing episode of Devil's Advocate. We've got a great word to hold onto, um, vicular. I can't believe we forgot that from our time. So yeah. Vicular. Um, thanks, thanks for putting that back in the vocab list and Ross, and have a great day. We'll see you on the next episode of Devil's Advocate.

[00:22:39] Producer: 
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Devil's Advocate. Who do you think the winner was? Make sure to leave a comment to let us know. DM us for any ghoulish topics you think we should dare to debate. We'll catch you in the next one.