21. The Legal World of Vaccines and Trademarks w/ Jon Groth

[00:00:00] Andrew Nasrinpay:

The best thing about being 

 

[00:00:00] Jon Groth:

a lawyer is blank freedom. The best thing about being a lawyer is being able to manage your own destiny and spend time with your family. 

 

[00:00:08] Bobby Steinbach:

Welcome to hot docket. The [00:00:10] show where we talk about winning marketing strategies that have built the most successful law firms. Join us every two weeks.

 

[00:00:19] Bobby Steinbach:

Hey everybody. And [00:00:20] welcome to the hot docket podcast today. We’ve got a really interesting subject. We’re going to be talking about vaccine injury lawsuits with Jon growth. 

 

[00:00:29] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Yeah, [00:00:30] so the interesting part about this is it’s an angle that I’ve never seen on the, uh, vaccine lawsuit side. I think we’ve seen a couple cases, [00:00:40] things like Zostavax that are, um, mass torts and they’re structured in a very different way.

 

[00:00:45] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Uh, Jon’s going to walk us through a totally different practice area. That, [00:00:50] I just think is, uh, very interesting. 

 

[00:00:52] Bobby Steinbach:

It’s going to be fascinating. And I think with that, rather than you and I just continuing to talk about things we don’t know about, let’s get, uh, Jon intro’d here. Jon, [00:01:00] thanks for joining us today.

 

[00:01:06] Jon Groth:

Well thanks for having me. Hopefully I’ll. I’ll shed some light [00:01:10] on this, on this practice area. There’s a number of us that do this, so it’s not like it’s new. It’s been around for decades upon decades, but I’ll happily answer any [00:01:20] questions and hopefully I can speak somewhat eloquently. So it’ll make sense.

 

[00:01:23] Bobby Steinbach:

I’m sure you’re going to do amazing. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to start growth law? [00:01:30] 

 

[00:01:30] Jon Groth:

Uh, boy, um, How much time do we have to talk about this? So I, I have some interesting stories that I won’t go into, uh, too much on the, on the record, but now I kind of have to, because I [00:01:40] just alluded to that fact.

 

[00:01:41] Jon Groth:

But, so I, um, graduated law school from Marquette in 2000. I worked at a general practice law firm, [00:01:50] um, doing all kinds of stuff from reading, uh, Uh, real estate deals to wills. I had a federal bankruptcy [00:02:00] trial involving, um, a probate claim between two, uh, octogenarians fighting over their mothers. Um house and she had just [00:02:10] passed away So I I think she was a hundred and something when she passed away So very unique things that I did I I did collection on a nationwide basis for that firm for one of their [00:02:20] companies Um, so all kinds of stuff and that was fun and i’m really glad I got the opportunity to do the you know General practice jack of all trades master of none type thing and [00:02:30] then I was wooed away to do Injury law and I worked for one of the bigger firm Uh, firms in Wisconsin as their trial lawyer [00:02:40] for about eight years until about 2010.

 

[00:02:43] Jon Groth:

Then March 1st of 2010, I started Growth Law Firm, and then, uh, it’s been a wild [00:02:50] ride ever since. So, we were in our basement initially. My dog is running back and forth. Um, my kids were crying, you know, all that kind of craziness where it just was me looking at [00:03:00] a block wall in our basement, um, trying to manage the practice.

 

[00:03:04] Jon Groth:

And then we eventually grew and grew and grew. And now we’re, I don’t know, um, [00:03:10] uh, five, Plus attorneys, um, I say plus because we just hired a new attorney. So I got to add up how many attorneys we have. Um, we have a, a full time HR [00:03:20] director, um, different divisions, um, um, pre lit litigation, uh, the vaccine division, you know, things like that.

 

[00:03:27] Jon Groth:

We purchased another practice, uh, Samstra [00:03:30] Conklin Saffron a few years ago. And that’s when I learned about the, the vaccine practice. Now, like you, I, I, You know, we do mass tort stuff and that [00:03:40] we get cases in and then we refer them out to other attorneys. Some we were handling in house. So I was aware of that kind of aspect of a law, but nothing like this.

 

[00:03:49] Jon Groth:

This [00:03:50] was kind of eye opening where I had to, uh, Really learn kind of a brand new, um, uh, uh, practice area that was very [00:04:00] unique. And, you know, it just has one jurisdiction, uh, in the U S court of federal claims over there in DC. So that’s unusual, you know, we have clients, we had a [00:04:10] client that was in Siberia, you know, we have clients all over the world, so that’s unique too.

 

[00:04:14] Jon Groth:

You know, I’m, I’m, I’m used to just helping people in Wisconsin. Anyway, I’ll let you ask more [00:04:20] questions. I’m, um, not. Answering the question that was posed. 

 

[00:04:24] Andrew Nasrinpay:

No, I think you’re doing a good job. I think what I was going to ask next is how you stumbled into it. But you [00:04:30] were saying that you ended up purchasing a firm that had this division already within it.

 

[00:04:35] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Can you tell us a little bit more about. Uh, the criteria for [00:04:40] the vaccine injury cases and, uh, what the most common examples look like. 

 

[00:04:46] Jon Groth:

Sure. So, um, CERVA [00:04:50] is the most common thing. You know, you’re going to hear people talk about a CERVA injury, shoulder injury, as the result of vaccine injury. administration.

 

[00:04:58] Jon Groth:

Shoulder injury is the [00:05:00] result of vaccine administration. So you get a shot, sometimes it’s too high, sometimes it’s too low, and you have maybe an immediate onset of pain, or it could [00:05:10] be your faint, um, syncope. It could be, um, numbness, tingling, you know, frozen shoulder, things like that. You have to have, um, [00:05:20] some notification, some, some notice, some evidence that this occurred within a couple days, and then it has to last for about six months.

 

[00:05:29] Jon Groth:

Um, [00:05:30] unless you have surgery or some catastrophic type event happen, then it can be less than six months, but usually it has to last for six months. Once you meet the six month [00:05:40] mark, then it’s a scheduled table injury and there’s a whole, I mean, I can pull them up here online. There’s a, um, uh, literally like a table.

 

[00:05:48] Jon Groth:

It’s kind of like, [00:05:50] Like workers comp, if attorneys do workers comp law, there’s like a schedule of injuries. It’s kind of like that where it’ll say, okay, I’ll flu vaccine. Do you [00:06:00] have these symptoms? You know, where the pain within a couple of days, did it last over six months? Once you have that, then it’s a table injury and you don’t have to really [00:06:10] do much else other than file your petition with, with the court and then go through, um, You give them all the medical records and such.

 

[00:06:19] Jon Groth:

The U. S. [00:06:20] Court of Federal Claims is the, the proper court to administer this and you get a special master assigned. The Department of Justice comes with their attorneys. [00:06:30] Um, they take all the medical records and they review them with, uh, health and human services experts who then will say, you know, this or that is what we [00:06:40] believe is related to the injury.

 

[00:06:42] Jon Groth:

Um, and then. Uh, you would negotiate back and forth as to whether, you know, this symptom or that symptom should be included, and then [00:06:50] eventually, they will give you a proffer or give you an offer to settle the case, and then you negotiate on that, and then, um, the nice thing is, the money [00:07:00] goes right to the victim.

 

[00:07:01] Jon Groth:

So, the client gets, uh, X amount of money, uh, in addition to, or sorry, not including, I should say, medical [00:07:10] expenses. So, um, it’s not like we’re dealing with subrogated parties, you know, this is a different kind of situation. And, um, the client’s usually happier [00:07:20] because I’m not taking a third of that fee, or I’m not taking a third as my fee or 40%, whatever the fee is, they get their money.

 

[00:07:26] Jon Groth:

And then I submit my, my fees, my [00:07:30] hourly fees and my staff’s hourly fees to the court. The court then reviews everything, and then they will, um, send us a, send us separately a [00:07:40] check for our fees. So, um, it, it really, in my mind, it puts the client first. The client’s hopefully [00:07:50] happy because the money’s going to them.

 

[00:07:51] Jon Groth:

Nobody else is getting a portion of their fees. And while they’re long gone and enjoying their compensation for their injury, then we have to get [00:08:00] paid. So, um, you’re not having any issues with that. So, um, It’s a pretty decent system. 

 

[00:08:06] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Can you, do you have any idea of what the prevalence is [00:08:10] of those injuries occurring?

 

[00:08:12] Jon Groth:

Gosh, you know, I, Jabail, one of our attorneys and I were just at the, um, the, uh, vaccine [00:08:20] injury compensation program. Uh, the, the bench meet at the bar meeting, sorry, um, uh, bench and bar meeting where the judges were there and we were there and they had all kinds of [00:08:30] slides and I wish I would have prepared.

 

[00:08:32] Jon Groth:

You would have told me that in advance because I would have pulled them up. But, um, I don’t know off the top of my head what the prevalence is, but [00:08:40] I can certainly find that and that would be a cool thing to have, um, to tell you. I can tell you, honestly, um, I’m shocked or [00:08:50] surprised that this occurs so much.

 

[00:08:52] Jon Groth:

For example, this is a good story. Um, last year I was a guest on a podcast, And it was a, [00:09:00] uh, news reporter, maybe in, uh, Colorado. I want to say somewhere out West and she’s interviewing me. And at the [00:09:10] end of the interview, you know, we’re talking in part about, uh, vaccine cases and such. And she says, you know, I got a flu vaccine three years ago, [00:09:20] tomorrow.

 

[00:09:21] Jon Groth:

And I know it was three years ago tomorrow because it was like her birthday or something like that. And, um, she said, I, I had symptoms within 24 hours. [00:09:30] It lasted. I had, um, uh, diagnostics. I had PT, frozen shoulder kind of symptoms for a year. So it met the criteria. And, [00:09:40] um, she said, I didn’t know about this until you just told me.

 

[00:09:42] Jon Groth:

And I was like, you need to, you know, File something, you know, I think you have a claim, but there’s three years, [00:09:50] you know, you only have three years to act Um, so that just goes to show there are people who have these injuries and they don’t know about it It’s a matter of just [00:10:00] telling them and we don’t have the camp lejeune kind of money We don’t have uh, it’s not like this big mass tort that you’re going to expect to Have that kind of different kind of aspect where it’s contingency [00:10:10] fee and you can work in mass It’s it’s not like that It’s more of a single event practice.

 

[00:10:14] Jon Groth:

So you don’t have law firms that are advertising, you know, every other ad, [00:10:20] um, for, 3M or ear protection or the campus unit or whatever else on Facebook or on TV. You just don’t have it. But I bet you, if there was that, [00:10:30] if more people talked about this, there’d be a lot more people who would realize, Oh yeah, I did suffer that, you know, that problem.

 

[00:10:36] Jon Groth:

I, I am one of the victims of these, uh, cervo [00:10:40] type injuries. 

 

[00:10:41] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Are there any other injuries, um, beyond that, beyond the freezing shoulder sort of symptoms that qualify? I. 

 

[00:10:49] Jon Groth:

[00:10:50] So, do you know that one song, I’m Sailing Away, I’m Sailing Away, um, or Sailing, um, Christopher, no, uh, no, [00:11:00] I’m saying the wrong song.

 

[00:11:01] Jon Groth:

Christopher’s Cross. Didn’t he sing Sailing? Sailing, I’m Sailing. Come on, sing it. Sing the song with me. What’s that song? [00:11:10] Christopher Cross. 

 

[00:11:10] Bobby Steinbach:

Christopher Cross? Who is that? 

 

[00:11:13] Jon Groth:

Don’t you know who Christopher Cross is? No idea who Christopher 

 

[00:11:19] Bobby Steinbach:

Cross [00:11:20] is. You’re embarrassing yourself, you don’t know who 

 

[00:11:24] Jon Groth:

Christopher Cross is.

 

[00:11:25] Jon Groth:

He was a 1970s boat yacht, you know, uh, [00:11:30] uh, uh, yacht. Yacht rock star. 

 

[00:11:32] Bobby Steinbach:

There’s no chance I would know that. 

 

[00:11:34] Jon Groth:

Oh, that’s embarrassing for you. You think 

 

[00:11:36] Bobby Steinbach:

people are going to know 

 

[00:11:38] Jon Groth:

that? That’s embarrassing 

 

[00:11:39] Bobby Steinbach:

for you. Maybe [00:11:40] I’ll be wrong. 

 

[00:11:41] Jon Groth:

You will be amazed at how beautiful a voice he has. That’s our homework tonight.

 

[00:11:44] Jon Groth:

For example, Christopher Cross had Guillain Barré syndrome. You ever hear of Guillain Barré? GBS? [00:11:50] It kind of shuts you down, it like shuts down your nervous system. You kind of have to learn to walk again. So I just say that because there’s been news articles about this guy, um, over the past [00:12:00] five plus years that he is an example of somebody who’s, who survived this horrible condition.

 

[00:12:05] Jon Groth:

Guillain Barre syndrome is something that we see very frequently in our flu [00:12:10] vaccine practice. 

 

[00:12:12] Bobby Steinbach:

Is that like B A R, like I always thought it was like Julian Barr or Gillian Barr. Is it the same thing? Correct. Guillain Barre. Yep. 

 

[00:12:19] Jon Groth:

Yeah. [00:12:20] Yeah. Yeah. So GBS, it’s easier to say, but yes, so there’s, there’s that, um, uh, there’s, uh, uh, hearing loss cases, uh, where [00:12:30] you may have a nervous condition that, um, it affects your hearing loss.

 

[00:12:34] Jon Groth:

There’s a number of different things. If you look at the, the table, you know, I could just start reading things on the table, [00:12:40] um, about different conditions. It’s very scientific, very technical, um, You know, lots of expert work. We have experts that are [00:12:50] Stanford, Harvard, you know, all the big name, uh, schools out there.

 

[00:12:53] Jon Groth:

People who are biologists, for example, are just experts who are very much like Sheldon from Big Bang [00:13:00] Theory. You know, those kind of really in the weeds experts about molecular biology. And that’s Um, that’s really what, you know, what you’re dealing [00:13:10] with. How did this vaccine change your, in essence, molecular structure and affects either, you know, your shoulder, Gambray, uh, whatever else, your [00:13:20] hearing loss, you know, things like that.

 

[00:13:21] Jon Groth:

So yes, there’s a good number of them. There there’s pages, uh, that this table comprises of that, uh, has a lot of different, uh, matters that [00:13:30] we can deal with. The most common though is simply the flu vaccine and going back to the prevalence. Um, I, I know we had a new client today. [00:13:40] Um, at least one today. Um, and it’s usually a couple, at least a couple of week.

 

[00:13:48] Jon Groth:

And I’m just little [00:13:50] growth law firm here in Wisconsin. So, um, you know, there’s certainly bigger firms that only do vaccine practice. Um, and they paid, you know, for [00:14:00] vaccineinjury. com or, you know, those kinds of things. I’m sure they’re, they’re seeing a lot more of those than I am. 

 

[00:14:05] Bobby Steinbach:

Yeah. So I think this is a pretty, As good a segue as any into the question I had, which is, [00:14:10] you must get a decent amount of inbound for a unique case type like vaccine injury.

 

[00:14:15] Bobby Steinbach:

And I imagine a lot of it doesn’t meet criteria. Has the harder problem for you [00:14:20] been marketing to acquire the leads for the practice or building back end operational processes for intake? 

 

[00:14:27] Jon Groth:

Uh, fantastic questions. You must have done [00:14:30] this before. You must have, uh, uh, handled a few cases in your years. Um, so just a few, uh, uh, intakes is not that bad.

 

[00:14:37] Jon Groth:

You know, we use a system on our, [00:14:40] um, well, we use FileVine. So everyone knows about FileVine, right? Um, so we have FileVine. We, we have it set up in, in, uh, In that, you can go through our [00:14:50] intake and check different buttons, and then it populates with other questions, and that’s somewhat easy, especially because it’s more of a scheduled kind of claim.

 

[00:14:59] Jon Groth:

It’s [00:15:00] pretty easy, you know, if you got the flu vaccine on, you know, May 1st and had no symptoms until June, that’s a problem. Or you didn’t tell a doctor until June, you know, that’s a [00:15:10] problem. So those are easy questions to ask. And then. Uh, we asked for, you know, proof or is there anybody else that you could talk to that they would be able to sign an affidavit saying, yes, you know, he or [00:15:20] she was holding the shoulder or showing pain, you know, those kind of things you can show too.

 

[00:15:23] Jon Groth:

But, um, so the intake is not that difficult. The bigger problem is you have somebody who comes and says, [00:15:30] I had X, Y, and Z take place. I told my doctor about it and I went to the doctor within three days or what have you. And then we. start [00:15:40] signing them up and having them sign authorizations and such. And then we’re going through all the records and we discover, you know, they had, um, uh, shoulder [00:15:50] injury the month before and the records are, you know, uh, very messy with whether this is related to a flu vaccine or something else.

 

[00:15:58] Jon Groth:

And, you know, [00:16:00] there’s a lot of that where we’re reviewing a lot, a lot of medical records and trying to ascertain what the, what the appropriate cases are or not, and trying to look at. Which [00:16:10] cases, which are not table cases, but probably are related to a flu vaccine, whether those cases are going to be cases that we could file a petition on, file a [00:16:20] claim, and have an expert like, uh, you know, somebody from Harvard or some, you know, fancy schmancy doctor come and give an opinion that this flu or this [00:16:30] vaccine caused this unique injury, because it might be similar, but it’s not exactly correct or not exactly on point.

 

[00:16:36] Jon Groth:

Sorry. So, um, You have that aspect too. [00:16:40] Uh, so go back to your questions. What were the two questions and make sure that I I answered them. 

 

[00:16:45] Bobby Steinbach:

Yeah, I think you pretty much answered it. Basically, I just wanted to understand, is [00:16:50] marketing and finding these cases the hard part, or is the hard part screening them, getting them signed up for the good cases, and then conversely turning down the, the ones that are no good, um.

 

[00:16:59] Jon Groth:

[00:17:00] Yeah. Kind of advice. I kind of went over the intake. So, you know, we’ve done some crazy, um, marketing, you know, and just crazy me like Tik Toks kind of stuff, right? Where you’re [00:17:10] doing Tik Tok and having videos on this, uh, talking about this on YouTube, um, writing as much as we can on our GVP, you [00:17:20] know, things like that.

 

[00:17:21] Jon Groth:

And really what I’ve been doing a lot is simply this, you know, where we’re talking on podcasts to as many people as we can, Anybody I talk to, I, I, I tell them [00:17:30] about shoulder injuries. I have a bunch of neighbors and friends and then a bunch, but a good number of, um, neighbors and friends. I don’t want to sound too hoity toity, but you know, the doctors that, that I know, [00:17:40] uh, and I ask them, have you ever heard of Cerva?

 

[00:17:41] Jon Groth:

And they’re like, I have no idea what you’re talking about. You know, I’m a proctologist. Why are we here? Why would I hear about shoulder surgeries? But, you know, for, for, for even the general practice [00:17:50] doctors, they, they don’t know, um, because it’s not something. You know, they’re usually treating symptoms.

 

[00:17:56] Jon Groth:

They’re not treating cause. Um, it’s a large part. [00:18:00] So, um, yeah, so they, uh, the, the big problem I have, I think, is what, you know, what we said before, not having enough knowledge out there that [00:18:10] this is a viable claim. We have run, campaigns, you know, PPC campaigns, um, [00:18:20] uh, Facebook ads, you know, things like that.

 

[00:18:22] Jon Groth:

And there’s been no magic bullet with this because it is such unusual thing. And the bigger problem to [00:18:30] more recently is covid. They wouldn’t let us run campaigns because you couldn’t even talk about quote unquote vaccines, right? Because you may be, you know, maybe part of some dis information [00:18:40] Scheme, uh, that was a big problem for a while was every single interview.

 

[00:18:44] Jon Groth:

I did was about kovat And I was like if kovat’s not part of the claim, you know You can’t make a claim for kovat you [00:18:50] can but it’s a whole different system that um, you know, good luck I I don’t know of any lawyers that even take those cases anymore or ever did because they’re not [00:19:00] part of the Uh, competition program.

 

[00:19:02] Jon Groth:

You don’t get your attorney’s fees separately. Um, it’s very limited. Uh, there, there’s all kinds of problems with it. And, um, uh, it was [00:19:10] just very difficult to even pursue those. So we’re guessing, and there, there are at least two or three bills out there in Congress that are, um, [00:19:20] heading hopefully to the president someday, uh, that will put COVID on the, compensation program and we just hope it’s done in time or there’ll be a look [00:19:30] back or something in time that we’ll be able to help some of the people that suffered these, you know, these injuries, uh, more than three years ago because, you know, the vaccines [00:19:40] at this point are coming on what?

 

[00:19:42] Jon Groth:

Over three years old 

 

[00:19:44] Andrew Nasrinpay:

the actual vaccines being administered You said a majority of these are going to be for the flu [00:19:50] vaccines. Is it the actual? like medical side of what is in the flu vaccine that’s causing it or it’s the Administration of it [00:20:00] being too high or too low in the shoulder so it could conceivably be any vaccine It’s just more about how it’s been administered.

 

[00:20:06] Jon Groth:

Yes, it is Uh, either [00:20:10] too high, too low, and it’s, in addition, it can be the reaction of your body to what’s in the actual vaccine. [00:20:20] Going back to, this relates to vaccines that are meant for children. So again, going back to COVID, uh, COVID didn’t even have a chance of [00:20:30] being on, uh, in the program until they said that this was allowed for, you know, meant for kids.

 

[00:20:37] Jon Groth:

Once they allowed it to be administered to [00:20:40] kids, that pushes it as a possibility for, uh, for a table injury, um, or to be in the program, I should say. Um, [00:20:50] so, Here, and I can just start reading off some of the vaccines. I mean, there’s hepatitis A vaccine, hepatitis B vaccine, [00:21:00] um, uh, the seasonal flu, which is the biggest one, MMR, mumps, um, uh, polio [00:21:10] vaccines, you know, things like that, that if you have these vaccines and have certain symptoms thereafter, then it can be a table injury.

 

[00:21:17] Jon Groth:

The [00:21:20] case I’m trying to find that talks about the non table injury is very specific, and it’s a form of GBS, of Guillain Barre, that, um, [00:21:30] Our expert says that that type of GBS is so similar to the table GBS, um, to, to the table injury [00:21:40] that, uh, the, the science dictates that it’s not non table, but that it was caused, sorry, the science dictates that it is non [00:21:50] table, but the cause of it is is because of the biological, the biological structure, the molecular structure that caused the injuries similar [00:22:00] to a table injury.

 

[00:22:01] Jon Groth:

So, That’s an example where it’s cutting hairs, I guess, splitting hairs, I guess is the term, right? Splitting hairs where it’s [00:22:10] almost right there. You just don’t have the exact, um, type of injury that you need to be a table injury, but you have doctors who say, you know, [00:22:20] this is so close, it’s a close variant.

 

[00:22:23] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Got it. So jumping back into the process side of running your firm [00:22:30] for this type of practice I know that you brought up file by file vine kind of being very important for this process Are there any other tools or strategies [00:22:40] that have been invaluable in? That sort of process of qualifying rejecting signing up new new clients 

 

[00:22:47] Jon Groth:

I Man, [00:22:50] I, I don’t want to sign sound like an advertiser here.

 

[00:22:53] Jon Groth:

So there’s a company that’s in New York and it’s just oddly in in Milwaukee, um, called the [00:23:00] Expert Institute, you know, so there’s groups like that, that They’ll help you find experts and it’s kind of nice because you can just let them run with it. [00:23:10] Um, and that’s been really nice to have it kind of in our back pocket that when you’re looking for an expert and you know, you need a virologist with, um, these credentials [00:23:20] that, um, deals with, uh, whatever, Gambray, you know, things like that.

 

[00:23:25] Jon Groth:

Uh, having those kind of Um, experts or those kind [00:23:30] of companies in your back pocket, uh, like seek expert review or what are the other books that I get from time to time. Right. I’m sure you’ve seen those books where they’re really expert headhunters [00:23:40] that that’s been really helpful. Um, and with a lot of our petitions that are documents that we file with the court.

 

[00:23:48] Jon Groth:

When we file an expert’s [00:23:50] report, experts cite everything and that’s what you have to do. We have to cite everything and they’re citing all these other, um, uh, all of their learned treatises that they [00:24:00] relied on in creating their report. That’s in essence a learned treatise for us. Um, so having Uh, the, the ability to go [00:24:10] to experts, uh, staff, uh, a nurse attorney or somebody to help gather that has been a big time, time saver for us.[00:24:20] 

 

[00:24:20] Jon Groth:

Um, so that’s, I guess, a technique, the, uh, The other thing simply is just having staff who have done this and you know, this [00:24:30] is very form based. So having these, these forms that are in place in Filevine and then be able to doc gen certain things have been fantastic. And so that’s a pretty good [00:24:40] tool. Um, again, going, going back some bit of Filevine and one of their add ons, you know, their docs plus whatever it’s called, right.

 

[00:24:47] Jon Groth:

Um, it has been pretty helpful or maybe [00:24:50] it’s outlaw now, whatever they call it outlaw or docs plus. 

 

[00:24:53] Bobby Steinbach:

So one thing you mentioned earlier, was that you were talking to like doctors [00:25:00] who might not have heard about Serpro or Sepra, Sep, whatever it is, however you, 

 

[00:25:04] Jon Groth:

Serva, 

 

[00:25:05] Bobby Steinbach:

Serva, Serva. Um, obviously I haven’t heard of it.

 

[00:25:08] Bobby Steinbach:

So Serva [00:25:10] and you know, that that’s potentially a way to create awareness, which in the future can generate referrals and all those good things. Is this a case type you [00:25:20] get? for? Like, are there other firms that are sending you these cases today? Or are there restrictions that kind of make co counsel untenable on that case type?[00:25:30] 

 

[00:25:30] Jon Groth:

No, it’s, it’s something honestly we do pretty frequently. I mean, there are cases that, that I, maybe it was two or three weeks ago that we had a case that we were reviewing and [00:25:40] we, As part of the bar, you talk to each other and somebody else had almost the exact same case. It was a non table injury and they had a doctor that they had [00:25:50] used in this other case and had a good result.

 

[00:25:52] Jon Groth:

And we said, this sounds like a great opportunity for you to help our client. Um, so I think that that happens pretty [00:26:00] frequently. In all honesty, a good percentage of the time, we have people who call us and say, Hey, Jon, I got this medical malpractice case for you. And I’m like, okay, what are the facts?

 

[00:26:08] Jon Groth:

Like, well, they got a vaccine. They got a [00:26:10] flu that I think the nurse may have done X, Y, and Z, or the lab tech at the pharmacy did X, Y, and Z. And it’s like, well, wait, hold your horses. This is not med mal. This is probably [00:26:20] a vaccine case. So that’s happened a number of times where It starts with, I got a med mal case for you.

 

[00:26:26] Jon Groth:

Um, and I, I think that’s with most [00:26:30] attorneys when you are kind of niching down into a certain practice area, you get referrals from other attorneys who don’t do it. I mean, I have bankruptcy attorneys who never want to touch a personal injury case, [00:26:40] and I never want to touch a bankruptcy case. So I can see, uh, I can certainly understand why.

 

[00:26:45] Jon Groth:

Um, uh, so that’s something that is, uh, [00:26:50] you Why I like the practice area because, first off, you have to be licensed in the U. S. Court of Federal Claims, so competition is [00:27:00] much less, right? There aren’t many of us who are licensed in that venue, I’ll say, or jurisdiction. It’s such a unique practice area that people don’t [00:27:10] want to touch it because they think they’re going to mess up.

 

[00:27:12] Jon Groth:

Um, which, again, concern. So, uh, that’s w in any kind of practice a So [00:27:20] you know what you’re d because hopefully you’ll pudding, the, you [00:27:30] know, t tell the story. You know, if you look at cases and you can see, once you understand time on desk, [00:27:40] average fees, you know, um, the cost of acquisition kind of scenario where you know what, what it costs to get these clients and [00:27:50] then how long it’s going to take you to get money for those clients.

 

[00:27:53] Jon Groth:

And, um, the luxury of knowing you’re going to [00:28:00] get Paid whatever your attorney’s fees are, you’re never going to run out of this fund, right? Um, I don’t think any presidents, you know, responsible or [00:28:10] irresponsible could take this fund away. Um, knock on wood, famous last words, but, um, So, uh, I think that’s when I [00:28:20] was looking at this and you look at for example car crash cases And maybe this is a whole different podcast.

 

[00:28:25] Jon Groth:

But what are our fears? Our fears are they don’t have insurance [00:28:30] Our fears are there’s not enough insurance. Uh, there’s hospital liens collateral source And then the long term fears are what’s going to happen with um, With [00:28:40] self driving cars and are we gonna I’ll be Elon Musk’s friend in the future or whatever it is, you know, he’s gonna drive with us in every car, you know, those kind of concerns.

 

[00:28:49] Jon Groth:

Will that [00:28:50] practice areas stick around? So you have all those fears. Um, with this practice area, it’s a little bit different. I don’t wanna say it’s evergreen, but it’s, [00:29:00] it’s different in that, uh, especially after covid. Um, My analysis was vaccines are talked about more than ever. People are probably going to get [00:29:10] them more because of what just happened a few years ago.

 

[00:29:13] Jon Groth:

So you’re going to have more. injured people that are out there. Um, and it’s more commonplace to [00:29:20] talk about vaccines and get vaccines. So there’s going to be a prevalence of, um, less, uh, trained, uh, administering, you know, where you [00:29:30] have some person who just came in off the street and is a lab tech and punches you, you know?

 

[00:29:37] Jon Groth:

So I thought that that would be the possibility. [00:29:40] Um, and knowing that there’s a guaranteed. payment for my staff’s time, my team members time, my time. That [00:29:50] is something that I really couldn’t turn down, right? I mean, the biggest problem is it just takes forever to settle the cases, you know, because the U. S.

 

[00:29:58] Jon Groth:

government is so incredibly [00:30:00] slow and getting medical records again is slow, but then getting them over to them and they’re reviewing them maybe in six months, that’s the biggest concern. The biggest concern I have about being able to, uh, [00:30:10] uh, handle the, the, the, the time on desk, um, and pay my staff.

 

[00:30:18] Jon Groth:

Luckily, we had a practice that’s been [00:30:20] around for a while. So we had income coming in. If I was a brand new lawyer getting into this practice, uh, it might be difficult because you have to wait a long time to get any fees [00:30:30] from the. You know, from the program. 

 

[00:30:32] Andrew Nasrinpay:

And at that same time, are you also paying the expert fees to work up the cases too?

 

[00:30:38] Andrew Nasrinpay:

So it’s it’s pretty capital [00:30:40] intensive. 

 

[00:30:40] Jon Groth:

Yeah, and eventually, you know, you get paid back for your expert fees Um, it’s not something that again, you don’t eat that it doesn’t come out of the client’s pocket it comes out separately, you know, [00:30:50] the the fund pays for that but and you You can make a, uh, you can make a request for like an interim payment of, [00:31:00] of, um, fees and, and, and, and costs.

 

[00:31:03] Jon Groth:

I think that’s more of a theory than, than something that’s in practice because I can’t remember the last time we ever did that. [00:31:10] But there is that possibility. But yeah, it’s gosh, we just, I ordered a check for 11, 300 bucks today for a case. It’s like, okay, doctor, I just paid for [00:31:20] your, you know, whatever. I don’t know what, what’s 11, 000 bucks a month for a car payment, a Lamborghini or something.

 

[00:31:26] Jon Groth:

I don’t know what, what it is for a second or third [00:31:30] house, uh, mortgage. Yeah. 

 

[00:31:32] Andrew Nasrinpay:

So you, you brought up something interesting where, yeah, there’s, it’s very unlikely that you won’t get paid because it’s the [00:31:40] government, there’s bankruptcy. Scenario there. Um, but you you brought up time on desk I’m curious what the average duration is from [00:31:50] like intake calling your firm and wanting to sign up to Uh the the successful resolution 

 

[00:31:58] Jon Groth:

years 

 

[00:31:59] Andrew Nasrinpay:

How [00:32:00] many on average 

 

[00:32:02] Jon Groth:

multiple years?

 

[00:32:03] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Okay 

 

[00:32:03] Jon Groth:

on average it’s in excess of uh, 18 months 

 

[00:32:09] Andrew Nasrinpay:

It’s not too bad [00:32:10] when you put it next to the average motor vehicle claim. It’ll probably be pretty similar 

 

[00:32:15] Jon Groth:

No Sorry, so that assumes, let’s say somebody calls us [00:32:20] yesterday, and um, they call us yesterday, I got a flu vaccine, I have pain, we wait for that six months, at that six month mark, then we gather all the [00:32:30] records, and you know, from that point, it’s probably 18 months, so um, from the time of filing it until resolution, maybe is, you know, that is about [00:32:40] 18 months, um, because Many times we’re talking with the clients, but, uh, they haven’t officially retained us or they’re, they’re waiting until [00:32:50] they’re, you know, the six month mark or something like that.

 

[00:32:52] Jon Groth:

So it’s, it, it is years, it is, um, 18 months plus, um, [00:33:00] that we have to, um, Start incurring costs and then holding those costs. 

 

[00:33:04] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Yeah. And at the same time though, when you put that in perspective with some of the mass torts where [00:33:10] Jonson and Jonson is filing for bankruptcy for a third time, and it’s a decade long into some of those.

 

[00:33:16] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Litigations already. Yeah, it still sounds relatively [00:33:20] reasonable. 

 

[00:33:20] Jon Groth:

Well, yeah, it’s true. So I I was at that conference at duke Um, probably four years ago now three years ago now, maybe four years ago now and they [00:33:30] were you know, um, they had um, I forget the judges who were there, but the one judge from louisiana Who handled all the vioxx the knee vioxx cases in the [00:33:40] 90s?

 

[00:33:40] Jon Groth:

He said he was still hearing motions on some, some claims for the Vioxx cases [00:33:50] from literally the 1990s. And so that 20 some years for that. So I agree. Yeah. In the grand scheme of things, I’ll take two years versus 20.[00:34:00] 

 

[00:34:00] Bobby Steinbach:

So we’ve been talking about niche case types and, you know, UD niching down in your case types. I noticed when I was looking around on your website, that your mom actually worked [00:34:10] in nursing homes. So I was kind of curious, how was your, how has that affected your opinion on the nursing home abuse style cases?

 

[00:34:17] Jon Groth:

Have you ever worked in a nursing home? 

 

[00:34:18] Bobby Steinbach:

No, my wife did. [00:34:20] No, not me. 

 

[00:34:21] Jon Groth:

Oh man. I mean, you go to some of these nursing homes and I was, so my mom was worked in like billing in a nursing home and for a summer, [00:34:30] maybe it was two summers. I don’t remember in college, I was the handyman for that same nursing home.

 

[00:34:34] Jon Groth:

And you walk in and you’re like, I had one grandmother who was in a nursing home, one luckily who didn’t [00:34:40] have to, um, go to a nursing home, but, um, uh, Some nasty stuff that you see that, um, even for a good nursing home, [00:34:50] there’s some nasty stuff that you see. Um, you know, you should never have to see somebody that you care for, even somebody, you know, and just like say, Hey, Bob, you know, kind of that, that kind [00:35:00] of care for as a fellow human, see somebody sitting in their own feces.

 

[00:35:03] Jon Groth:

I mean, that that’s just preposterous. So, um, it, it didn’t affect me. You know, some of the cases I see, I’m sure you guys have seen similar cases [00:35:10] where just horrific injuries, horrific problems. That the only reason that those occurred is because it was just understaffing and negligence. Um, and I feel no, [00:35:20] no sympathy whatsoever towards going after the staff or hopefully getting them out of the nursing home racket, you know, shutting down a nursing home or getting somebody’s [00:35:30] license pulled.

 

[00:35:30] Jon Groth:

That’s fine with me. 

 

[00:35:32] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Yeah, I think the level three and level four, like, uh, pressure ulcers, the bed sores. It’s a perfect example. Oh, 

 

[00:35:38] Jon Groth:

just horrific, huh? [00:35:40] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My kids will be like, Hey dad, look at this picture. I was like, yeah, whatever I’ve seen. Uh, yeah. I’ve seen some bed sores that would [00:35:50] make you vomit.

 

[00:35:50] Jon Groth:

So, um, yeah, what, whatever my 16 year old or 18 year old will say certain things that’s like, yeah, well, You know, you don’t understand what a lawyer actually [00:36:00] does or what I or what we actually do, right? Some of the things we’ve seen and heard and talked about are is disgusting 

 

[00:36:07] Andrew Nasrinpay:

All right. So before we move on to our [00:36:10] game, we usually conclude with a little game I I was curious that uh, you trademarked a slogan one click Uh, that is it.

 

[00:36:19] Andrew Nasrinpay:

I’m i’m [00:36:20] curious. Uh, Walk us through that decision. Is it something you’d recommend for other firms and and how that ended up working out for you? 

 

[00:36:27] Jon Groth:

so I have uh You [00:36:30] Uh, some of the best advice given to me was to be a lifelong learner. So I am always listening to uh, podcasts, you know, Lunch Hour Legal [00:36:40] Marketing with Conrad Sam and Geetha Akalakis and things like that or the, you know, Ben Glass or Trial Lawyer Nation or whatever, you know, all those different things.

 

[00:36:47] Jon Groth:

And, you know, marketing is a big one that I’m [00:36:50] always listening to. So, um, and we have done a lot of traveling, you know, with kids over the years. So you see lots of billboards. So [00:37:00] long story short, I, uh, trademarked growth law. So, uh, people can’t in theory bid on my name, um, with [00:37:10] PPC. Um, and then I trademarked one click.

 

[00:37:13] Jon Groth:

That is it just because it was out there. I was shocked that, that Morris Bart let it [00:37:20] go. Uh, right. I mean, Morris Bart down in Louisiana and such, he let it go. Um, uh, he has one click of that’s it. It’s not, [00:37:30] doesn’t, it’s not as cool as one click. That is it. It’s much more, you know, um, a proper way of saying it one click.

 

[00:37:37] Jon Groth:

That is it. But, um, but we got in a [00:37:40] fight with a law firm out of Pennsylvania because they have one click of that’s quick. And they said it was too close. So long story short, um, why did I do it? [00:37:50] Because, uh, I, Uh, get into these, uh, times when I think it’s a good idea and people tell me it’s a good idea and I still think it’s a good [00:38:00] idea to trademark your name.

 

[00:38:02] Jon Groth:

And then, um, you know, my, my plan eventually is to license out the one click that is it. Uh, once we get the, [00:38:10] Uh, stuff kind of rolling on a, um, nationwide basis. And then we’ll have hopefully the ability to be like whoever did the one call. That’s [00:38:20] all right. Um, what was the guy’s name down in Texas? Um, Bryant, Jerry Bryant, I think was the guy maybe who came up with that back in the [00:38:30] 1990s.

 

[00:38:30] Jon Groth:

Um, yeah. So that’s why, if that answers your question, I think there’s a couple of different things that I was thinking about and eventually, [00:38:40] uh, pulled the trigger and did that. 

 

[00:38:42] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Yeah, I was just curious about it and kind of wanted to hear the whole story around it. 

 

[00:38:47] Bobby Steinbach:

Yeah, I’ve never heard of the uh, anti [00:38:50] conquesting aspect.

 

[00:38:51] Bobby Steinbach:

You think that holds? 

 

[00:38:53] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Uh, I know in some states, um, It’s against like bar ethics to bid on other [00:39:00] attorneys names. Um, 

 

[00:39:01] Bobby Steinbach:

but I do wonder about even in the States, it’s not against ethics if the trademark idea kind of affords that protection. We’ve never seen it. 

 

[00:39:09] Andrew Nasrinpay:

You cannot [00:39:10] include the trademark in the ad copy.

 

[00:39:13] Bobby Steinbach:

So if you’re, if your firm name is trademarked, but can you still bid on the term and not include it in the copy? 

 

[00:39:18] Andrew Nasrinpay:

That’s correct. 

 

[00:39:19] Bobby Steinbach:

You sure [00:39:20] about that? Pretty positive. Okay. Fair enough. So we’re going to end here, Jon, with a fill in the blanks game. So, your standard kind of Mad [00:39:30] Libs type of thing, I’ll read the first one, and uh, Andrew and I will kind of alternate going the rest of the way.[00:39:40] 

 

[00:39:44] Bobby Steinbach:

So number one, vaccines are blank for you. Good for [00:39:50] you. 

 

[00:39:51] Andrew Nasrinpay:

The best thing about being a lawyer is blank.

 

[00:39:58] Jon Groth:

Uh, freedom. [00:40:00] 

 

[00:40:00] Bobby Steinbach:

It can be more than one word, just because I’m not sure if that was clear from the instructions. Oh, it 

 

[00:40:05] Jon Groth:

can be more than one word? It can 

 

[00:40:07] Bobby Steinbach:

be more than one word. 

 

[00:40:07] Jon Groth:

Oh, the best thing about being a lawyer is being [00:40:10] able to, um, uh, manage your own destiny and spend time with your family. I’m not stuck in a, uh, you know, [00:40:20] uh, well, a factory or like my father running into burning buildings.

 

[00:40:24] Jon Groth:

So I, I, yeah, I prefer this job over that. 

 

[00:40:27] Bobby Steinbach:

I thought you were going to say not being stuck in an office and I was [00:40:30] going to be like, Oh, thanks a lot, Jon. Uh, number three, it really grinds my gears when blank. 

 

[00:40:37] Jon Groth:

Uh, people say, do you have a second? 

 

[00:40:39] Bobby Steinbach:

[00:40:40] That’s a great  answer. 

 

[00:40:43] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Come to Wisconsin for the cheese. Stay for the blank.

 

[00:40:47] Jon Groth:

Oh, fishing. The outdoor [00:40:50] life. I mean, today is the most beautiful day and I’m stuck talking to you guys. Thanks. It is literally 65 degrees and sunny. Um, uh, [00:41:00] first day of fishing is this Saturday. Um, it is beautiful. 

 

[00:41:06] Bobby Steinbach:

Yeah, it’s pretty, it’s not too bad here either. Wouldn’t shake your finger at it. [00:41:10] Um, and finally, number five.

 

[00:41:12] Bobby Steinbach:

One click blank. 

 

[00:41:15] Jon Groth:

That is it. 

 

[00:41:16] Bobby Steinbach:

Yeah, teed him up. All right. Thanks for joining us, Jon. It was great [00:41:20] getting to chat. 

 

[00:41:21] Andrew Nasrinpay:

So I thought that was super interested, interesting. I always like to learn about case types and litigation areas that we don’t [00:41:30] necessarily have experience ourself and It’s just super interesting.

 

[00:41:35] Bobby Steinbach:

Yeah, I think the question with stuff like this is always What’s, what’s going to [00:41:40] happen from here? Is it going to continue to be kind of adopted by more and more firms as they see the opportunity? Or is it going to continue to just be one of those places where very few [00:41:50] firms are going to stay niched down and figure it out?

 

[00:41:53] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Yeah, I think a lot of it depends on the volume of injuries that are out there. And I think he was saying there are some, you know, [00:42:00] moats to entry there with the venue itself. And, um, then there are some vaccines that just don’t work. aren’t even in, in, uh, play [00:42:10] for that type of case. So, very, very interesting all in though.

 

[00:42:15] Bobby Steinbach:

Yep, agreed. Um, and for everybody listening, we’re gonna include, uh, Jon’s [00:42:20] info in the show notes and on the YouTube, on the YouTube. Wow, okay. Um, in any case, uh, we’re gonna include all that. So, [00:42:30] you know, if you have any clients that might have been injured by a vaccine and you’re looking for a place to, uh, we’ll Basically give them, uh, the option to talk to a specialist.[00:42:40] 

 

[00:42:40] Bobby Steinbach:

You’ll have Jon’s info. Thanks for joining us on Hot Docket Podcast. We hope you’ve enjoyed this episode of Hot Docket. We’re your hosts, Bobby and Andrew, [00:42:50] founders of Meme Pop, the marketing agency for ambitious law firms. 

 

[00:42:53] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Have questions about marketing or anything we covered today? Email us atPark@meanpug.com.

 

[00:42:59] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Be [00:43:00] sure to subscribe to learn more.